| (Copyright) by Ray Daly (Lincoln, North Dakota) |
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| Note what follows, and ask yourself what will happen, when the following event takes place. In Rev. 6:16, all nations on the earth will see the sign of the Messiah in heaven. The sign being the “Lamb”. Then ask yourself how said nations will view said vision. First consider that some 1.2 billion or so Christians believe in the return of Christ, the “Lamb”. How will they react when they see said “Lamb”? Will they prepare to war against him, or will they prepare for his coming in peace? But secondly, did you know that another 1+ billion Islamists also expect the coming of their Messiah, the “Lamb”? How will they react when they see his sign in heaven? But wait. Did you know as well that both the Hindu and Buddhist religions expect the coming of their Messiah, the “Lamb”? That’s another 2-3 billion citizens of the earth. Perhaps many more than 2-3 billion. For even Japan is heavily into Buddhism. Will they prepare to war against him when he sets down on earth? Or will they also prepare for his coming ahead of time? The question is, how will they prepare? After all, Scripture is very clear that Christ, the “Lamb” will indeed return to the earth before the official end times end. This is shown in Acts 1:11. For Peter says that Jesus will “so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.” Note also what it says of Jesus future coming in Zech. 9:9. “…Your King comes to you. He is just and having salvation. Lowly and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt [mule] the foal of an ass.” And note when said coming will take place. Rev. 14:1. “I looked and behold. A Lamb stood on the mount of Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand…!” Lastly, the present-day Edomite Israeli Jews also expect their Messiah, the “Lamb” to return. Will they give up Jerusalem and Judea because all of the Gentiles that expect their “Lamb” will want to have a part in Jerusalem and Judea to greet him when he arrives? No, they will refuse to allow them to come and be there. Thus, those nations are going to go to war against the Jews (likely around 2037), which was is shown in Lk. 21:20. “When you see Jerusalem surrounded with [Gentile] armies, then know that the desolation is nigh.” We know from prophecy that the Gentiles will be in charge of Jerusalem when Christ comes. Thus, it is evident that said battles will take place. The book of Zechariah Ch. 1 shows the forming of the Gentile unity, and also shows that they will war against the Israeli Jews. In Ch. 2 it describes how the LORD will return to Jerusalem, and that he will see to it that a “temple” will be built in it, by the Gentiles, using the newly arrived tribes of Judah and Benjamin to aid them in its construction. Enough on this. Just what do you feel is the Truth? |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: The Return of Christ Article by Ray Daly Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| Ray’s Article: Note what follows, and ask yourself what will happen, when the following event takes place. In Rev. 6:16, all nations on the earth will see the sign of the Messiah in heaven. The sign being the “Lamb”. Then ask yourself how said nations will view said vision. Laura Writes: Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Using this verse apparently, they all want rocks to fall on them. In other words, they want to die. Ray’s Article: First consider that some 1.2 billion or so Christians believe in the return of Christ, the “Lamb”. How will they react when they see said “Lamb”? Will they prepare to war against him, or will they prepare for his coming in peace? But secondly, did you know that another 1+ billion Islamists also expect the coming of their Messiah, the “Lamb”? How will they react when they see his sign in heaven? But wait. Did you know as well that both the Hindu and Buddhist religions expect the coming of their Messiah, the “Lamb”? That’s another 2-3 billion citizens of the earth. Perhaps many more than 2-3 billion. For even Japan is heavily into Buddhism. Will they prepare to war against him when he sets down on earth? Or will they also prepare for his coming ahead of time? Laura Writes: The Islamists, Hindus, Buddhists and even most people calling themselves Christian are not interested in Christ returning to earth or they would all be keeping God’s Law now. Ray’s Article: The question is, how will they prepare? After all, Scripture is very clear that Christ, the “Lamb” will indeed return to the earth before the official end times end. This is shown in Acts 1:11. For Peter says that Jesus will “so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.” Note also what it says of Jesus future coming in Zech. 9:9. “…Your King comes to you. He is just and having salvation. Lowly and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt [mule] the foal of an ass.” And note when said coming will take place. Rev. 14:1. “I looked and behold. A Lamb stood on the mount of Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand…!” Laura Writes: Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11 is a past event and Revelation 1:7 is a future event. Revelation 1:7 is most likely after the last trump when he comes for the elect: Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. *************** Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zechariah 9:9 Already happened, See Luke 19:35-37 below: Luk 19:35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon. Luk 19:36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way. Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; *************** Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1 takes place after the wedding supper of the Lamb. The 144,000 are the resurrected and changed elect of God. Ray’s Article: Lastly, the present-day Edomite Israeli Jews also expect their Messiah, the “Lamb” to return. Will they give up Jerusalem and Judea because all of the Gentiles that expect their “Lamb” will want to have a part in Jerusalem and Judea to greet him when he arrives? No, they will refuse to allow them to come and be there. Thus, those nations are going to go to war against the Jews (likely around 2037), which was is shown in Lk. 21:20. “When you see Jerusalem surrounded with [Gentile] armies, then know that the desolation is nigh.” Laura Writes: Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. *************** Robertson’s Word Pictures Luke 21:20 Compassed with armies (kukloumenēn hupo stratopedōn). Present passive participle of kukloō, to circle, encircle, from kuklos, circle. Old verb, but only four times in N.T. The point of this warning is the present tense, being encircled. It will be too late after the city is surrounded. It is objected by some that Jesus, not to say Luke, could not have spoken (or written) these words before the Roman armies came. One may ask why not, if such a thing as predictive prophecy can exist and especially in the case of the Lord Jesus. The word stratopedōn (stratos, army, pedon, plain) is a military camp and then an army in camp. Old word, but only here in the N.T. Then know (tote gnōte). Second aorist active imperative of ginōskō. Christians did flee from Jerusalem to Pella before it was too late as directed in Luk_21:21; Mar_13:14.; Mat_24:16. *************** Jamieson, Faucet and Brown Luke 21:20-21 by armies — encamped armies, that is, besieged: “the abomination of desolation” (meaning the Roman ensigns, as the symbols of an idolatrous, pagan, unclean power) “spoken of by Daniel the prophet” (Dan_9:27) “standing where it ought not” (Mar_13:14). “Whoso readeth [that prophecy] let him understand” (Mat_24:15). Then … flee, etc. — Eusebius says the Christians fled to Pella, at the north extremity of Perea, being “prophetically directed”; perhaps by some prophetic intimation still more explicit than this, which still would be their chart. *************** Luke 21:20 is talking about an event that has already taken place in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple. Some believe this was only a partial fulfillment of this prophecy and that the rest will happen at the time Christ returns. As far as the time of the Gentiles, that probably will not be fulfilled until Christ returns. Setting specific dates for anything is probably not a good idea. Ray’s Article: We know from prophecy that the Gentiles will be in charge of Jerusalem when Christ comes. Thus, it is evident that said battles will take place. The book of Zechariah Ch. 1 shows the forming of the Gentile unity, and also shows that they will war against the Israeli Jews. In Ch. 2 it describes how the LORD will return to Jerusalem, and that he will see to it that a “temple” will be built in it, by the Gentiles, using the newly arrived tribes of Judah and Benjamin to aid them in its construction. Enough on this. Just what do you feel is the Truth? Laura Writes: Not sure you can get all of that from the first 2 Chapters of Zechariah, so I would say some of this is your own opinion. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: The Return of Christ Article by Ray Daly Comments by Ray Daly (Lincoln, North Dakota) |
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| Relating to “your” assessments on a couple of my comments in the Jesus returns article. 1) “Hiding” from the rocks. You say it killed them. Note what it tells us in the definition from the Concordance. NT: Hide. #2928. “To CONCEAL, by COVERING: -hide (self), keep secret.” IOW’s, they want the rocks to “hide” them. Meaning, that they are likely in caves or the clefts of the mountains. Consider the definitions of clefts (#288) and caves (#4631) in the OT. 2) Your claiming that the 144,000 in Rev. 14:1 are of the “resurrected”. How could you think that, when Scripture clearly tells us that the resurrection of the faithful saints will not even take place until Jesus is ready to sit on his throne, or is already sitting on it? There is no support in Scripture for your rendition. I could point out a couple of other points in your comments, but if you cannot accept the two above, why add more? You might wish to not use your own definitions when God Almighty’s words do not support such definitions. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: The Return of Christ Article by Ray Daly Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| Ray writes: Relating to “your” assessments on a couple of my comments in the Jesus returns article. “Hiding” from the rocks. You say it killed them. Note what it tells us in the definition from the Concordance. NT: Hide. #2928. “To CONCEAL, by COVERING: -hide (self), keep secret.” IOW’s, they want the rocks to “hide” them. Meaning, that they are likely in caves or the clefts of the mountains. Consider the definitions of clefts (#288) and caves (#4631) in the OT. Laura writes: Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? In context of what the scriptures say here, they hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. Then these same people that are hiding are now asking for the rocks and even the mountains to fall on them. What is it you believe is going to happen to these people when the rocks and mountains fall on top of them? They will either be crushed to death or trapped inside the mountain and eventually suffocate. The idea that these people wanted to die is not my idea. Other people have studied these scriptures and came to the same conclusion. I believe Adam Clarke states it well. Adam Clarke Commentary: Revelation 6:16 Said to the mountains and rocks – Expressions which denote the strongest perturbation and alarm. They preferred any kind of death to that which they apprehended from this most awful revolution. From the face of him that sitteth on the throne – They now saw that all these terrible judgments came from the Almighty; and that Christ, the author of Christianity, was now judging, condemning, and destroying them for their cruel persecutions of his followers. Ray writes: Your claiming that the 144,000 in Rev. 14:1 are of the “resurrected”. How could you think that, when Scripture clearly tells us that the resurrection of the faithful saints will not even take place until Jesus is ready to sit on his throne, or is already sitting on it? There is no support in Scripture for your rendition. Laura writes: 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. When the last trumpet which is the seventh trumpet sounds, the firstfruits will be resurrected or changed. This happens about the same time the two witnesses are resurrected. Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. There are four trumpets and then three woe trumpets. The seventh trumpet is the third woe. So, this is the point when the firstfruits are resurrected or changed. Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. It helps when scriptures are read in context of other scriptures. From Revelation 14:1-5 we can see that the 144,000 are the firstfruits and that they have been resurrected and are in heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb but then return to earth with Christ. The throne they were before here is in heaven. Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Rev. 15:2 just further backs up 14:1-5. Ray writes: I could point out a couple of other points in your comments, but if you cannot accept the two above, why add more? You might wish to not use your own definitions when God Almighty’s words do not support such definitions. Laura writes: It would help if you would give us the scriptures you are using to prove your points. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: The Return of Christ Article by Ray Daly Comments by Ray Daly (Lincoln, North Dakota) |
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| Concerning the trumpets that were used to announce the Holy Days. You mention there only being “seven” trumpets, thus saying there were only seven Holy Days. But perhaps you have forgotten that the “eighth day” following the seven-day Feast of Tabernacles, is a “separate Holy Day”. It is not announcing the “seventh feast”, which pictures the time when Christ will govern on earth. But the Scripture 1 Cor. 15:52, is speaking of the time when the Father Himself will come to the earth, along with “his Temple”. Thus the “dead in Christ” rising first is speaking of those that were of Jesus Christ, and who have died during the seventh millennium. They will be raised to flesh, bone, and Spirit life, to work with those who will be raised to life at that time, just as the faithful of the past will be resurrected to work with Christ during the seventh millennium. Thus, when Paul says, “we will be changed”, it is referring to those in the first resurrection, in flesh, bone, and Spirit bodies, will become “totally Spirit beings”. No more flesh and bone. People do not seem to see that God Almighty and the Angels are “flesh, bone, and Spirit beings”. This is best shown in the account where Moses asks to see the Almighty. He, to this point, as all others, had only heard his Voice. But The Almighty responds that “No man can see my FACE.” However, he goes on to say that he would cover Moses’s face with his hand “while I pass by, and you shall see my BACK, but my Face shall not be seen”. (para) However, it seems that we never understood that even the flesh, bone and Sprit God Almighty, himself has a Father that is totally Spirit. Which I find to be the meaning of John 1:1. “John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word [or, the VOICE of the OT], and the [flesh, bone, and Spirit] Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Clearly speaking of TWO beings. As I have come to see it, there was the “TOTALLY SPIRIT” being (and maybe many more????) who wanted to have children. But he was unable to reproduce himself, by making totally Spirit children. So, he created the flesh, bone and blood Son, whom created human beings (along with the Angels likely creating some), through whom other total Spirit sons could be born to the totally Spirit Father. I’m sure that by now, God Almighty, the Voice, has also become totally Spirit. But on this I can only surmise. This may be hard for you and Darwin to see, as it was for me. But please go carefully through John 1:1 and consider the words as they are used. For, whom can the “Word” be referring to other than the Voice/God Almighty??? For, it is the Almighty that “Said”, and it came to be. And it is only the Almighty that is on earth with his Created Angels, during the Creation period and onto today. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: The Return of Christ Article by Ray Daly Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| Ray writes: Concerning the trumpets that were used to announce the Holy Days. You mention there only being “seven” trumpets, thus saying there were only seven Holy Days. But perhaps you have forgotten that the “eighth day” following the seven-day Feast of Tabernacles, is a “separate Holy Day”. It is not announcing the “seventh feast”, which pictures the time when Christ will govern on earth. Laura writes: 1st Trumpet = Feast of Trumpets 2nd Trumpet = Atonement 3rd Trumpet = 1st Day of the Feast of Tabernacles 4th Trumpet = The Last Great Day 5th Trumpet/1st Woe = Passover/First Day of Unleavened Bread 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe = Last Day of Unleavened Bread 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe = Pentecost/Feast of First Fruits There are only 7 high Holy Days. Ray writes: But the Scripture 1 Cor. 15:52, is speaking of the time when the Father Himself will come to the earth, along with “his Temple”. Thus the “dead in Christ” rising first is speaking of those that were of Jesus Christ, and who have died during the seventh millennium. They will be raised to flesh, bone, and Spirit life, to work with those who will be raised to life at that time, just as the faithful of the past will be resurrected to work with Christ during the seventh millennium. Laura writes: 1st Millennium = 1 to 1000 years (Adam and Eve, and sin entered the world.) 2nd Millennium = 1000 to 2000 years (Time of Noah’s Flood midway between) 3rd Millennium = 2000 to 3000 years 4th Millennium = 3000 to 4000 years 5th Millennium = 4000 to 5000 years (Christ was Crucified at the start of this.) 6th Millennium = 5000 to 6000 years (We are at the end of this.) 7th Millennium = 6000 to 7000 years (The resurrection of the first fruits and the marriage supper of the lamb start this off. This is the time period when Christ rules with his elect on earth for 1000 years.) 8th Millennium = 7000 to 8000 years (Time when the rest of the dead are resurrected.) All of the above has to be completed before we get the new heavens and the new earth and before God the Father comes to earth to rule with Christ forever and forever. Ray writes: Thus, when Paul says, “we will be changed”, it is referring to those in the first resurrection, in flesh, bone, and Spirit bodies, will become “totally Spirit beings”. No more flesh and bone. Laura writes: 1st Corinthians 15:52 is talking about the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of the First Fruits that will rule with Christ during the 1000-year millennium. Ray writes: People do not seem to see that God Almighty and the Angels are “flesh, bone, and Spirit beings”. This is best shown in the account where Moses asks to see the Almighty. He, to this point, as all others, had only heard his Voice. But The Almighty responds that “No man can see my FACE.” However, he goes on to say that he would cover Moses’s face with his hand “while I pass by, and you shall see my BACK, but my Face shall not be seen”. (para) Laura writes: God almighty and the Angels are all Spirit Beings, and man is flesh and bones right now. No one has seen the Father and Moses saw the back side of Christ and he has arms and legs just like us. The reason Moses couldn’t look at the face of Christ is because the brightness of Christ would have killed him. Ray writes: However, it seems that we never understood that even the flesh, bone and Sprit God Almighty, himself has a Father that is totally Spirit. Which I find to be the meaning of John 1:1. “John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word [or, the VOICE of the OT], and the [flesh, bone, and Spirit] Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Clearly speaking of TWO beings. As I have come to see it, there was the “TOTALLY SPIRIT” being (and maybe many more????) who wanted to have children. But he was unable to reproduce himself, by making totally Spirit children. So, he created the flesh, bone and blood Son, whom created human beings (along with the Angels likely creating some), through whom other total Spirit sons could be born to the totally Spirit Father. I’m sure that by now, God Almighty, the Voice, has also become totally Spirit. But on this I can only surmise. Laura writes: Sometimes I feel like you are either living in “Twilight Zone” or “Star Trek” with the things you say that either make no sense or are totally nonsense. If you believe this stuff, you should be able to prove it from scripture and yet you hardly ever give a scripture and when you do the scripture does not say what you tell us it says. God the Father and Christ are not created beings. They are both spirit beings with no beginning and no end. Christ temporarily gave up his eternal life to become a man and dwell among us so that we would be saved from the death penalty and would someday become spirit beings and live with God the Father and Christ forever and ever. Everything and I mean everything that was created was created by Christ himself because God the Father wanted it that way. The Angels created no one or nothing. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Now let me sort these verses out for you: In the beginning was Christ and Christ was with the Father and Christ was a God. Christ and the Father were God from the beginning (or in all eternity). All things were made by Christ and without Christ nothing was made. (And yes, this is my rendition of John 1:1-3 but if you compare the two that is essentially what it says.) Ray writes: This may be hard for you and Darwin to see, as it was for me. But please go carefully through John 1:1 and consider the words as they are used. For, whom can the “Word” be referring to other than the Voice/God Almighty??? For, it is the Almighty that “Said”, and it came to be. And it is only the Almighty that is on earth with his Created Angels, during the Creation period and onto today. Laura writes: The “Word” is Christ. Christ has always been the spokesman for God the Father. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14 proves that Christ was the “Word”. |
| Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: The Return of Christ Article by Ray Daly Comments by Ray Daly (Lincoln, North Dakota) and Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota) |
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| Ray writes: WCG taught that Christ could come with his Angels at basically any time and set up his kingdom. And I have found that many, if not most, of the splits off of WCG continue to feel that way. But ask yourself, and try asking your readers, if the following supports such a teaching. Mt. 5:18 “…Until heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL BE FULFILLED.” Mat. 26:53-54. “Think not that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than twelve legions of Angels. [With which Angels, his kingdom would be set up.] But how then shall SCRIPTURE BE FULFILLED.” There are several other NT teachings by Christ that support the same doctrine. Or, have the doctrinal changes been put into the hands of human beings.? Laura writes: I guess, I am not quite sure what doctrine you are talking about here. For starters, everything will not be fulfilled until all people left that want to follow God are spirit beings and living in the Kingdom of God. Speculation in regard to when Christ will return is based on Scripture. For starters, Pentecost is called the Feast of First Fruits, so that would be a clue from scripture that Christ will probably return on Pentecost. However, with that said, we don’t know which Pentecost but perhaps may be able to guess as the end draws near. Even if we are able to guess which Pentecost, we still will not know the hour or the minute He returns until it happens. Another clue is here: 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. So, around the time of the last trumpet which would be the seventh trumpet (third woe trumpet) the resurrection of the first fruits will take place. This would be just before the bowls of wrath are poured out on the earth. Human beings are not to make doctrinal changes that I know of. What is said above comes right from the bible and has been in the bible since the first bible. |
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