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Was Our Savior Created?

August 27, 2022June 27, 2025 by Laura Lee

by James Steinle (Swanville, Minnesota)
This question is one that has different understandings by many in the various assemblies over the years. There are a number who believe Yayshua or Jesus did not exist until he was born of Mariam. I believe the Scriptures both old and new uphold and support that he was in existence before the existence of anything else. However, I do not believe he was eternal as the Father was until he was given life eternally after coming down from Heaven and sacrificing his life for ours. Here is my understanding about this often quietly talked about topic. In Revelation 3:14 John wrote the message that came from the Father who gave it to His Son (Rev. 1:1), “And unto the angel [messenger] of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [G746, the ar-Kay or arche] of the creation of God [Yehovah].” It is my belief this “beginning’’ is talking about Yayshua the Son as the very beginning of the Father’s creation as I believe Proverbs chapter 8:22-31 describes in more detail. WISDOM WAS BROUGHT FORTH Proverbs 8 talks about wisdom and verse 12 says, “I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.” Going on to verse 22, “Yehovah [the LORD] possessed [H7069 erect, create, procure are some of the meanings], me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up [H5258 pour out, to cast as in metal] from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth” [H2342; born, to be in labor (childbirth), amongst other meanings]. For an example of being brought forth, we find in Isaiah 66:7-9: “Before she travailed [H2342], she brought forth [H3205 to act as midwife, to beget, show linage]; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth [H3205] in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth, saith Yehovah? Shall I cause to bring forth [H3205 to bear young, beget.], and shut the womb? saith thy God.” Continuing now in Prov.8:25, “when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was, I brought forth [H2342]: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” Paul says this in 1 Corinthians 1:24, “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Messiah the power of Elohim [God] and the wisdom of Elohim.” Do the above readings in Proverbs 8 sound like it is only an inanimate wisdom, which a person would think the Father had from eternity? It reads like an individual being that was brought forth in some way or other. I believe it would more likely be the Son Yayshua describing his beginning. Here is another example of the word ‘formed’ [H3335] (which is also in Isaiah 43:10 discussed further below) in Deuteronomy 32:18 “Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.” Formed is H2342. Job 39:1 “Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth [H2342]? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?” Calve is also H2342. IN THE BEGINNING John 1:1 “In the beginning [what or which beginning?] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.” Paul says in Colossians 1:15 talking about Yayshua, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the Ekklesia [assembly, called-out-ones, commonly aka church]: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” John 8:42, “Yayshua said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded [G1831 issued] forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.” Might this include Yayshua’s original beginning and also his physical beginning? Yayshua added a little more information in John 17:5 & 8, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was [appears two beings involved prior to the start of the world]. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out [G1831 to issue, literally or figuratively] from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.” He himself said he was the Son of his Father (John 10:34-35). BUT WHAT ABOUT ISAIAH 43:10? “Ye are my witnesses, saith Yehovah [the LORD], and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed [H3335], neither shall there be after me. The above verse certainly appears to be a difficult one in regard to the question, was our Messiah created? In trying to understand any hard scripture, we always want to compare that with other ones that are not hard to understand.” In searching for an answer to Isaiah 43:10 I came across what Adam Clark had to say in his Commentary. Adam Clark says regarding Isaiah 43:10. “Ye (the Israelites) are my witnesses – and my servant (the prophet) whom I have chosen, that whatever has been said before concerning Sennacherib has been literally fulfilled. The prophet had predicted it; the Israelites saw it accomplished.” *“Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after* me.” This is a most difficult place. Was there a time when God was not? No! Yet he says, before me. Will there be a time in which God will not exist? No! Yet he says, after me. Are not all these words to be referred to his creation? Before me, no god created anything, nor was there anything pre-existent but myself. And after me, i.e., after my creation, such as now exists, there shall be no other class of beings formed. This mode of interpretation frees the passage from all embarrassment, and the context perfectly agrees with it. The words my servant, in this verse, the Targum understands of the Messiah.” So, we see even theologians like Adam Clark had to think hard with this verse. CONCLUSION It is my belief Yayshua was the Power and the Wisdom who was brought forth in Proverbs 8 and that he was the Son of the Father even before he came to earth. Proverbs 30:4, “Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?” These and various other scriptures are why I believe as I do, that Yayshua the Son was somehow brought forth by the Eternal at some point prior to the creation of time and had his part to play in creation itself. For any reading this explanation of my belief, I don’t expect this to change any person’s mind; but at least it hopefully helps others to understand why there may be a different understanding as to whether Yayshua the Messiah was created or not.

by James Steinle (Swanville, Minnesota)

This question is one that has different understandings by many in the various assemblies over the years. There are a number who believe Yayshua or Jesus did not exist until he was born of Mariam. I believe the Scriptures both old and new uphold and support that he was in existence before the existence of anything else. However, I do not believe he was eternal as the Father was until he was given life eternally after coming down from Heaven and sacrificing his life for ours. Here is my understanding about this often quietly talked about topic.

In Revelation 3:14 John wrote the message that came from the Father who gave it to His Son (Rev. 1:1), “And unto the angel [messenger] of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [G746, the ar-Kay or arche] of the creation of God [Yehovah].” It is my belief this “beginning’’ is talking about Yayshua the Son as the very beginning of the Father’s creation as I believe Proverbs chapter 8:22-31 describes in more detail.

WISDOM WAS BROUGHT FORTH
Proverbs 8 talks about wisdom and verse 12 says, “I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.” Going on to verse 22, “Yehovah [the LORD] possessed [H7069 erect, create, procure are some of the meanings], me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up [H5258 pour out, to cast as in metal] from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth” [H2342; born, to be in labor (childbirth), amongst other meanings].

For an example of being brought forth, we find in Isaiah 66:7-9: “Before she travailed [H2342], she brought forth [H3205 to act as midwife, to beget, show linage]; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth [H3205] in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth, saith Yehovah? Shall I cause to bring forth [H3205 to bear young, beget.], and shut the womb? saith thy God.”

Continuing now in Prov.8:25, “when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was, I brought forth [H2342]: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.”

Paul says this in 1 Corinthians 1:24, “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Messiah the power of Elohim [God] and the wisdom of Elohim.”

Do the above readings in Proverbs 8 sound like it is only an inanimate wisdom, which a person would think the Father had from eternity? It reads like an individual being that was brought forth in some way or other. I believe it would more likely be the Son Yayshua describing his beginning.

Here is another example of the word ‘formed’ [H3335] (which is also in Isaiah 43:10 discussed further below) in Deuteronomy 32:18 “Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.” Formed is H2342. Job 39:1 “Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth [H2342]? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?” Calve is also H2342.

IN THE BEGINNING
John 1:1 “In the beginning [what or which beginning?] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”

Paul says in Colossians 1:15 talking about Yayshua, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the Ekklesia [assembly, called-out-ones, commonly aka church]: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

John 8:42, “Yayshua said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded [G1831 issued] forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.” Might this include Yayshua’s original beginning and also his physical beginning?

Yayshua added a little more information in John 17:5 & 8, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was [appears two beings involved prior to the start of the world]. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out [G1831 to issue, literally or figuratively] from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.” He himself said he was the Son of his Father (John 10:34-35).

BUT WHAT ABOUT ISAIAH 43:10?
“Ye are my witnesses, saith Yehovah [the LORD], and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed [H3335], neither shall there be after me. The above verse certainly appears to be a difficult one in regard to the question, was our Messiah created? In trying to understand any hard scripture, we always want to compare that with other ones that are not hard to understand.”

In searching for an answer to Isaiah 43:10 I came across what Adam Clark had to say in his Commentary.

Adam Clark says regarding Isaiah 43:10. “Ye (the Israelites) are my witnesses – and my servant (the prophet) whom I have chosen, that whatever has been said before concerning Sennacherib has been literally fulfilled. The prophet had predicted it; the Israelites saw it accomplished.” “Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

This is a most difficult place. Was there a time when God was not? No! Yet he says, before me. Will there be a time in which God will not exist? No! Yet he says, after me. Are not all these words to be referred to his creation? Before me, no god created anything, nor was there anything pre-existent but myself. And after me, i.e., after my creation, such as now exists, there shall be no other class of beings formed. This mode of interpretation frees the passage from all embarrassment, and the context perfectly agrees with it. The words my servant, in this verse, the Targum understands of the Messiah.”

So, we see even theologians like Adam Clark had to think hard with this verse.

CONCLUSION
It is my belief Yayshua was the Power and the Wisdom who was brought forth in Proverbs 8 and that he was the Son of the Father even before he came to earth. Proverbs 30:4, “Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?”

These and various other scriptures are why I believe as I do, that Yayshua the Son was somehow brought forth by the Eternal at some point prior to the creation of time and had his part to play in creation itself.

For any reading this explanation of my belief, I don’t expect this to change any person’s mind; but at least it hopefully helps others to understand why there may be a different understanding as to whether Yayshua the Messiah was created or not.

Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: Was Our Savior Created? Article by James Steinle Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)
In most literal translations of the Bible the word “beginning” is translated as “Chief”. In other words what is being said is that Christ is the Chief of the creation, He is in charge of the creation. It is not saying He was created or that He was the first of the created beings. Rev. 3:14 – And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV) One of the Strong’s Concordance definitions for the word “beginning” here is “chief”. Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: “This is what the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation, says: (LEB) Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the assembly of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God: (LITV) Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things says the Amen, the Witness—the Faithful and True—the Chief of the creation of God; (LSV) Rev 3:14 ‘And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God; (YLT) Rev 3:14 This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God’s creation. Listen to what I say. (CEV) Colossians 1:15-18 Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. In Col 1:16 it is pretty clear that all things were created by Christ that were created. Christ cannot create himself, so He was with God through all eternity. John 1:1-3 Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (KJV) Joh 1:1 From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God. Joh 1:2 This Word was from the first in relation with God. Joh 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and without him nothing was. (BBE) In these scriptures it is saying that from the first the Word (Christ) was with God (the Father) and the Word (Christ) was God. And it also says that all things that exist came through Christ and without Him (Christ) nothing would exist. Isaiah 43:10 Below are some Bibles that clear up this scripture for us: In the Old King James Version, it says: 10- Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen that ye may know and believe me and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11-I even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior. This is a literal statement made by Christ and nowhere in the statement does it say Christ was formed or created. It is a statement saying there was no God before Christ nor will there be after Him. In the Contemporary English Version, it says: 10-My people, you are my witnesses and my chosen servant. I want you to know me, to trust me, and understand that I alone am God. I have always been God; there can be no others. 11-I alone am the Lord; only I can rescue you. From the Brenton Bible, it says: 10-Be my witnesses, and I too am a witness, saith the Lord God, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know, and believe, and understand that I am he: before me there was no other God, and after me there shall be none. From the Septuagint with Apocrypha, it says: 10-Be ye my witnesses, and I too am a witness, saith the Lord God, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know, and believe, and understand that I am he: before me there was no other God, and after me there shall be none.11-I am God; and beside me there is no Saviour. ——————————————————————————————————————————– From the 1611 Edition of the King James Bible, it says: 10-Yee are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me and understand that I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11-I even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no Saviour. In the foot note of that Bible just before “no God formed” it says “Or, nothing formed of God.” In the footnote of the 1611 Edition of the King James Bible it says “Or, nothing formed of God.” Whether you want to take that as God formed nothing (including Christ) or that Christ was not formed from a part of God, it doesn’t matter as both ways clearly show Christ was not created by God or from a part of God. TSK Cross References also says the same thing: No God Formed: or “nothing formed of God” From the Albert Barnes Commentary: Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses – They were his witnesses, because, first, he had given in them predictions of future events which had been literally fulfilled: secondly, by his power of delivering them so often manifested, he had shown that he was a God able to save. Neither of these had been done by the idol-gods (compare Isa_44:8). And believe me – Or rather, confide in me. Before me there was no God formed – I am the only true, the eternal God. In this expression, Yahweh says that he was the first being. He derived his existence from no one. Perhaps the Hebrew will bear a little more emphasis than is conveyed by our translation. ‘Before me, God was not formed,’ implying that he was God, and that he existed anterior to all other beings. It was an opinion among the Greeks, that the same gods had not always reigned, but that the more ancient divinities had been expelled by the more modern. It is possible that some such opinion may have prevailed in the oriental idolatry, and that God here means to say, in opposition to that, that he had not succeeded any other God in his kingdom. His dominion was original, underived, and independent. Neither shall there be after me – He would never cease to live; he would never vacate his throne for another. This expression is equivalent to that which occurs in the Book of Revelation, ‘I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last’ Rev_1:11; and it is remarkable that this language, which obviously implies eternity, and which in Isaiah is used expressly to prove the divinity of Yahweh, is, in the passage referred to in the Book of Revelation, applied no less unequivocally to the Lord Jesus Christ. Please see the article “Why Humans” printed in Issue #80 and the “Iron Sharpening Iron” to go with it. I believe that James in sincerity studied this but, in the end, came to a wrong conclusion because he was looking in the wrong place. My conclusion is that this is a false doctrine. Christ is not a created being. He has existed through eternity, and He will continue to exist. A created being cannot save you from sin and neither can they be worshipped. God/Christ is the beginning and the end.

Iron Sharpening Iron
In regard to: Was Our Savior Created?
Article by James Steinle
Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)

In most literal translations of the Bible the word “beginning” is translated as “Chief”. In other words what is being said is that Christ is the Chief of the creation, He is in charge of the creation. It is not saying He was created or that He was the first of the created beings.

Rev. 3:14 – And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)

One of the Strong’s Concordance definitions for the word “beginning” here is “chief”.

Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: “This is what the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation, says: (LEB)

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the assembly of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God: (LITV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things says the Amen, the Witness—the Faithful and True—the Chief of the creation of God; (LSV)

Rev 3:14 ‘And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God; (YLT)

Rev 3:14 This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God’s creation. Listen to what I say. (CEV)

Colossians 1:15-18
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

In Col 1:16 it is pretty clear that all things were created by Christ that were created. Christ cannot create himself, so He was with God through all eternity.

John 1:1-3
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (KJV)

Joh 1:1 From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God. Joh 1:2 This Word was from the first in relation with God. Joh 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and without him nothing was. (BBE)

In these scriptures it is saying that from the first the Word (Christ) was with God (the Father) and the Word (Christ) was God. And it also says that all things that exist came through Christ and without Him (Christ) nothing would exist.

Isaiah 43:10
Below are some Bibles that clear up this scripture for us:

In the Old King James Version, it says:
10- Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen that ye may know and believe me and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11-I even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior.

This is a literal statement made by Christ and nowhere in the statement does it say Christ was formed or created. It is a statement saying there was no God before Christ nor will there be after Him.

In the Contemporary English Version, it says:
10-My people, you are my witnesses and my chosen servant. I want you to know me, to trust me, and understand that I alone am God. I have always been God; there can be no others. 11-I alone am the Lord; only I can rescue you.

From the Brenton Bible, it says:
10-Be my witnesses, and I too am a witness, saith the Lord God, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know, and believe, and understand that I am he: before me there was no other God, and after me there shall be none.

From the Septuagint with Apocrypha, it says:
10-Be ye my witnesses, and I too am a witness, saith the Lord God, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know, and believe, and understand that I am he: before me there was no other God, and after me there shall be none.11-I am God; and beside me there is no Saviour.
——————————————————————————————————————————–

From the 1611 Edition of the King James Bible, it says:
10-Yee are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me and understand that I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11-I even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no Saviour.

In the foot note of that Bible just before “no God formed” it says “Or, nothing formed of God.”

In the footnote of the 1611 Edition of the King James Bible it says “Or, nothing formed of God.” Whether you want to take that as God formed nothing (including Christ) or that Christ was not formed from a part of God, it doesn’t matter as both ways clearly show Christ was not created by God or from a part of God.

TSK Cross References also says the same thing:
No God Formed: or “nothing formed of God”

From the Albert Barnes Commentary:
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses – They were his witnesses, because, first, he had given in them predictions of future events which had been literally fulfilled: secondly, by his power of delivering them so often manifested, he had shown that he was a God able to save. Neither of these had been done by the idol-gods (compare Isa_44:8).

And believe me – Or rather, confide in me.

Before me there was no God formed – I am the only true, the eternal God. In this expression, Yahweh says that he was the first being. He derived his existence from no one. Perhaps the Hebrew will bear a little more emphasis than is conveyed by our translation. ‘Before me, God was not formed,’ implying that he was God, and that he existed anterior to all other beings. It was an opinion among the Greeks, that the same gods had not always reigned, but that the more ancient divinities had been expelled by the more modern. It is possible that some such opinion may have prevailed in the oriental idolatry, and that God here means to say, in opposition to that, that he had not succeeded any other God in his kingdom. His dominion was original, underived, and independent.

Neither shall there be after me – He would never cease to live; he would never vacate his throne for another. This expression is equivalent to that which occurs in the Book of Revelation, ‘I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last’ Rev_1:11; and it is remarkable that this language, which obviously implies eternity, and which in Isaiah is used expressly to prove the divinity of Yahweh, is, in the passage referred to in the Book of Revelation, applied no less unequivocally to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Please see the article “Why Humans” printed in Issue #80 and the “Iron Sharpening Iron” to go with it.

I believe that James in sincerity studied this but, in the end, came to a wrong conclusion because he was looking in the wrong place.

My conclusion is that this is a false doctrine. Christ is not a created being. He has existed through eternity, and He will continue to exist. A created being cannot save you from sin and neither can they be worshipped. God/Christ is the beginning and the end.

Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: Was Our Savior Created? Article by James Steinle Comments by Royce Mitchell, Jr. (Manvel, Texas)
I read this article astounded at the lengths James Steinle went to fabricate his lie about our Savior. I want to take his initial “proof” scriptures one by one to show that his article is merely nonsense. He wrote: “In Revelation 3:14 John wrote the message that came from the Father who gave it to His Son (Rev. 1:1), “And unto the angel [messenger] of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [G746, the ar-Kay or arche] of the creation of God [Yehovah].” It is my belief this “beginning’’ is talking about Yayshua the Son as the very beginning of the Father’s creation as I believe Proverbs chapter 8:22-31 describes in more detail.” First, what we “believe” is not relevant. What is relevant is what the Word of God says. That scripture, Rev 1:1 is clearly NOT talking about the beginning of the Savior but of the Creation as it plainly states. Twisting it to mean the beginning of the Savior is beyond the plain meaning of the scriptural text. Next, he writes, “Proverbs 8 talks about wisdom and verse 12 says, “I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.” Going on to verse 22, “Yehovah [the LORD] possessed [H7069 erect, create, procure are some of the meanings], me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up [H5258 pour out, to cast as in metal] from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth” [H2342; born, to be in labor (childbirth), amongst other meanings].” Here is that set of scriptures unobstructed with the deception Mr. Steinle adds to the scripture: Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Who was speaking there? It wasn’t YHVH, the LORD, the Word who became flesh. It was WISDOM speaking metaphorically as can be shown from the context in verse 12. Next Steinle brings in Isa 66:7-9 to explain what “bringing forth” means. It adds nothing to proving the lie he proposes. It was wisdom that was brought forth before the works of old. He next conjures up the rest of Prov 8 as if it proved his lie. The fact is that the rest of Prov 8 is merely the metaphorical speaking of WISDOM, not of some entity that later became Christ. Next, he drags in a verse out of context attempting to support his blasphemy, 1 Cor 1:24, as if Christ was the power but the wisdom was someone different. This is exactly the kind of foolishness we get from people who make up their own dogma then twist scriptures to support it. Here’s the context of that verse: 1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Paul is talking about Christ who was crucified and who is the Power of God AND the Wisdom of God, being preached to those who are called. I need go no further so that I can bring this response to an end. John 1 is clear. The One who became Christ was in fact the Word, the YHVH, the Ever Living One, who created all things and for Whom all things were created. Attempts to make Christ less than what He is becomes instantly a lie, a heretical statement, and foolishness on its face. While I appreciate wanting to give different authors a forum, there comes a point when perhaps wisdom should dictate that obvious nonsense not be published lest others think that these fantasies have some basis in reality.

Iron Sharpening Iron
In regard to: Was Our Savior Created?
Article by James Steinle
Comments by Royce Mitchell, Jr. (Manvel, Texas)

I read this article astounded at the lengths James Steinle went to fabricate his lie about our Savior. I want to take his initial “proof” scriptures one by one to show that his article is merely nonsense.

He wrote: “In Revelation 3:14 John wrote the message that came from the Father who gave it to His Son (Rev. 1:1), “And unto the angel [messenger] of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [G746, the ar-Kay or arche] of the creation of God [Yehovah].” It is my belief this “beginning’’ is talking about Yayshua the Son as the very beginning of the Father’s creation as I believe Proverbs chapter 8:22-31 describes in more detail.”

First, what we “believe” is not relevant. What is relevant is what the Word of God says. That scripture, Rev 1:1 is clearly NOT talking about the beginning of the Savior but of the Creation as it plainly states. Twisting it to mean the beginning of the Savior is beyond the plain meaning of the scriptural text.

Next, he writes, “Proverbs 8 talks about wisdom and verse 12 says, “I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.” Going on to verse 22, “Yehovah [the LORD] possessed [H7069 erect, create, procure are some of the meanings], me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up [H5258 pour out, to cast as in metal] from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth” [H2342; born, to be in labor (childbirth), amongst other meanings].”

Here is that set of scriptures unobstructed with the deception Mr. Steinle adds to the scripture:
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Who was speaking there? It wasn’t YHVH, the LORD, the Word who became flesh. It was WISDOM speaking metaphorically as can be shown from the context in verse 12.

Next Steinle brings in Isa 66:7-9 to explain what “bringing forth” means. It adds nothing to proving the lie he proposes. It was wisdom that was brought forth before the works of old.

He next conjures up the rest of Prov 8 as if it proved his lie. The fact is that the rest of Prov 8 is merely the metaphorical speaking of WISDOM, not of some entity that later became Christ.

Next, he drags in a verse out of context attempting to support his blasphemy, 1 Cor 1:24, as if Christ was the power but the wisdom was someone different. This is exactly the kind of foolishness we get from people who make up their own dogma then twist scriptures to support it. Here’s the context of that verse:
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul is talking about Christ who was crucified and who is the Power of God AND the Wisdom of God, being preached to those who are called.

I need go no further so that I can bring this response to an end. John 1 is clear. The One who became Christ was in fact the Word, the YHVH, the Ever Living One, who created all things and for Whom all things were created. Attempts to make Christ less than what He is becomes instantly a lie, a heretical statement, and foolishness on its face.

While I appreciate wanting to give different authors a forum, there comes a point when perhaps wisdom should dictate that obvious nonsense not be published lest others think that these fantasies have some basis in reality.

Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: Was Our Savior Created? Article by James Steinle Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)
We sincerely appreciate anyone who helps us out with these “Iron Sharpening Irons”. Great Job and Thank you. Royce said: “While I appreciate wanting to give different authors a forum, there comes a point when perhaps wisdom should dictate that obvious nonsense not be published lest others think that these fantasies have some basis in reality.” Laura’s Response: I fully understand your concern. We don’t publish these articles because we want to give different authors a forum for what you call nonsense. It is our opinion that if the Worldwide Church of God had dealt with these issues rather than to show the door to those who had different ideas, those ideas may not have gone out of control as they have. Like it or not, there seem to be several people within the Church of God that have some version of James Steinle’s idea pasted into their belief system. Wouldn’t it be better to get these ideas out in the open and deal with them? We definitely do not agree with James Steinle’s idea that Christ was created. But now we have an article by James Steinle and attached to it will be your “Iron Sharpening Iron” and a few others showing what the problems are with James’s article. Jame’s may not change his mind in regard to this issue, but others who have an open mind and are willing to read the scriptures for what they really say instead of looking for coded messages will be able to look at this whole thing and perhaps not go in the same direction that James went with this. This is one of the reasons that we want many people to write up these “Iron Sharpening Irons”. When they are not attached to the article as we do, people do get the idea that what is being said is true when it is false, or it could go the other way sometimes also. I think if we are truly God’s people, we all want to teach what is true and not what is false, but sometimes people don’t really understand certain subjects and do need help with the right understanding. Darwin and I can only do so much, we need other people to back us up and contribute to these conversations. So again, we sincerely thank you for your contribution and hope you will help out again with other articles in the future.

Iron Sharpening Iron
In regard to: Was Our Savior Created?
Article by James Steinle
Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)

We sincerely appreciate anyone who helps us out with these “Iron Sharpening Irons”. Great Job and Thank you.

Royce said:
“While I appreciate wanting to give different authors a forum, there comes a point when perhaps wisdom should dictate that obvious nonsense not be published lest others think that these fantasies have some basis in reality.”

Laura’s Response:
I fully understand your concern. We don’t publish these articles because we want to give different authors a forum for what you call nonsense.

It is our opinion that if the Worldwide Church of God had dealt with these issues rather than to show the door to those who had different ideas, those ideas may not have gone out of control as they have. Like it or not, there seem to be several people within the Church of God that have some version of James Steinle’s idea pasted into their belief system.

Wouldn’t it be better to get these ideas out in the open and deal with them? We definitely do not agree with James Steinle’s idea that Christ was created. But now we have an article by James Steinle and attached to it will be your “Iron Sharpening Iron” and a few others showing what the problems are with James’s article.

Jame’s may not change his mind in regard to this issue, but others who have an open mind and are willing to read the scriptures for what they really say instead of looking for coded messages will be able to look at this whole thing and perhaps not go in the same direction that James went with this.

This is one of the reasons that we want many people to write up these “Iron Sharpening Irons”. When they are not attached to the article as we do, people do get the idea that what is being said is true when it is false, or it could go the other way sometimes also.

I think if we are truly God’s people, we all want to teach what is true and not what is false, but sometimes people don’t really understand certain subjects and do need help with the right understanding. Darwin and I can only do so much, we need other people to back us up and contribute to these conversations. So again, we sincerely thank you for your contribution and hope you will help out again with other articles in the future.

Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: Was Our Savior Created? Article by James Steinle Comments by James Steinle (Swanville, Minnesota)
Laura, I appreciate your input on my thoughts and article, Was Our Savior Created? I certainly do not intend that my current understanding is to be a doctrine that everyone should believe; but some thoughts to consider as a possibility. When our Savior comes and hopefully resurrects us, He will certainly correct what is needed to be corrected in us; and we I would hope, will say, “Yes Sir, I stand corrected! Thank You!” One thing I understand a little differently than likely most, is something you mentioned about Revelation 1:11, which in the KJV says, “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” Most believe the Alpha and Omega here refers to the Savior. It is my current understanding the first part of this verse was added in sometime in the past as many Greek manuscripts do not include “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and”. For example, see: https://www.kjvtoday.com/book-of-revelation/ (Talks about the various translations difficulties in Rev. including 1:11) and also https://www.biblebookprofiler.com/the-forgery-of-revelation-1-8-11.html#forgeryrev1-11 In Rev. 1:1 it shows the main original revelator is the Father. Verse 4 talks about a Being in Heaven which is mentioned as “him” and “his Throne”, which would be referencing the Father as verse 5 says in referencing who was also greeting them included, “and from Jesus Christ…”. Verse 8 says, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.’ I bolded “the Almighty” as there is only One who can be The Almighty (or All Mighty) and that would be the Father Himself. Verses 17-19 of Chapter 1 would then be the Savior speaking what the Father told him to speak. Revelation 21 talks about a new heaven and a new earth and also the Alpha and Omega. Verse 3 says in part, “…Behold the tabernacle of the God [direct article in Greek although not shown in the KJV] (indicating to me the Father Himself) is with men, and he will dwell with them and they shall be his people and [the] God [YHWH] himself shall be with them, and be their God [Elohim or Mighty One as no direct article]. Verse 6 of Rev. 21 then records John writing that the One saying this is saying, “I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end…” Verse 7 then says, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God [Elohim or Mighty One] and he shall be my son.” The first fruits or saints will have as their Husband the Savior and would not be known as ‘sons’ to Yayshua or Jesus. So as such, it is my current belief the Alpha and Omega is the Father. The biggest and most important thing to remember as potential helpmeets to our Savior is to love one another as he has loved us (John 15:12,17) and to bring forth fruit (v16). This I sincerely believe you and Darwin are doing in putting out your newsletter for many to go over and try and prove what is truth – and what is not truth. We always need to be willing to change if we come to see and prove something different. That includes me.

Iron Sharpening Iron
In regard to: Was Our Savior Created?
Article by James Steinle
Comments by James Steinle (Swanville, Minnesota)

Laura, I appreciate your input on my thoughts and article, Was Our Savior Created? I certainly do not intend that my current understanding is to be a doctrine that everyone should believe; but some thoughts to consider as a possibility. When our Savior comes and hopefully resurrects us, He will certainly correct what is needed to be corrected in us; and we I would hope, will say, “Yes Sir, I stand corrected! Thank You!”

One thing I understand a little differently than likely most, is something you mentioned about Revelation 1:11, which in the KJV says, “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” Most believe the Alpha and Omega here refers to the Savior. It is my current understanding the first part of this verse was added in sometime in the past as many Greek manuscripts do not include “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and”. For example, see:

https://www.kjvtoday.com/book-of-revelation/ (Talks about the various translations difficulties in Rev. including 1:11) and also https://www.biblebookprofiler.com/the-forgery-of-revelation-1-8-11.html#forgeryrev1-11

In Rev. 1:1 it shows the main original revelator is the Father. Verse 4 talks about a Being in Heaven which is mentioned as “him” and “his Throne”, which would be referencing the Father as verse 5 says in referencing who was also greeting them included, “and from Jesus Christ…”. Verse 8 says,

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.’ I bolded “the Almighty” as there is only One who can be The Almighty (or All Mighty) and that would be the Father Himself. Verses 17-19 of Chapter 1 would then be the Savior speaking what the Father told him to speak.

Revelation 21 talks about a new heaven and a new earth and also the Alpha and Omega. Verse 3 says in part, “…Behold the tabernacle of the God [direct article in Greek although not shown in the KJV] (indicating to me the Father Himself) is with men, and he will dwell with them and they shall be his people and [the] God [YHWH] himself shall be with them, and be their God [Elohim or Mighty One as no direct article]. Verse 6 of Rev. 21 then records John writing that the One saying this is saying, “I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end…” Verse 7 then says, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God [Elohim or Mighty One] and he shall be my son.” The first fruits or saints will have as their Husband the Savior and would not be known as ‘sons’ to Yayshua or Jesus.

So as such, it is my current belief the Alpha and Omega is the Father. The biggest and most important thing to remember as potential helpmeets to our Savior is to love one another as he has loved us (John 15:12,17) and to bring forth fruit (v16). This I sincerely believe you and Darwin are doing in putting out your newsletter for many to go over and try and prove what is truth – and what is not truth. We always need to be willing to change if we come to see and prove something different. That includes me.

Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: Was Our Savior Created? Article by James Steinle Comments by Darwin & Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)
Laura writes: I hate to mark all over what someone else has written, so James Steinle’s “Iron Sharpening Iron” appears before this in its entirety. In this copy you will find our comments to what he has written. James writes: Laura, I appreciate your input on my thoughts and article, Was Our Savior Created? I certainly do not intend that my current understanding is to be a doctrine that everyone should believe; but some thoughts to consider as a possibility. When our Savior comes and hopefully resurrects us, He will certainly correct what is needed to be corrected in us; and we I would hope, will say, “Yes Sir, I stand corrected! Thank You!” Laura writes: God gave us His Holy Spirit and the Bible to guide us into all truth. The thing is that when we study, we have to get rid of our belief system and read what the Bible actually says. If you do that you will understand more truth. If you are looking for coded messages as some are, you are going down the wrong path. Also, if you believe that everything that pops into your mind comes from only God, you would be wrong. Satan is the prince of the air. Satan pelts our thoughts with misinformation 24/7 if we let him. When the two witnesses come on the scene, they will be teaching us truth also. Let’s hope we all listen to what they tell us. James writes: One thing I understand a little differently than likely most, is something you mentioned about Revelation 1:11, which in the KJV says, “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” Most believe the Alpha and Omega here refers to the Savior. It is my current understanding the first part of this verse was added in sometime in the past as many Greek manuscripts do not include “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and”. For example, see: https://www.kjvtoday.com/book-of-revelation/ (Talks about the various translations difficulties in Rev. including 1:11) and also https://www.biblebookprofiler.com/the-forgery-of-revelation-1-8-11.html#forgeryrev1-11 Laura writes: Actually, I did not reference Revelation 1:11 to you in my comments to your article. Revelation 1:11 was mentioned in a quote I gave from the Albert Barnes Commentary: So apparently Albert Barnes does not realize the first part of that verse was not in most or all early manuscripts. I actually did not know that myself until you brought it to my attention. King James Version Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Codex Sinaiticus 1:11 saying: What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven churches, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea. Adam Clarke I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and – This whole clause is wanting in ABC, thirty-one others; some editions; the Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Slavonic, Vulgate, Arethas, Andreas, and Primasius. Griesbach has left it out of the text. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and — The oldest manuscripts, omit all of this clause (in Rev. 1:11). James writes: In Rev. 1:1 it shows the main original revelator is the Father. Verse 4 talks about a Being in Heaven which is mentioned as “him” and “his Throne”, which would be referencing the Father as verse 5 says in referencing who was also greeting them included, “and from Jesus Christ…”. Verse 8 says, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.’ I bolded “the Almighty” as there is only One who can be The Almighty (or All Mighty) and that would be the Father Himself. Verses 17-19 of Chapter 1 would then be the Savior speaking what the Father told him to speak. Laura writes: Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I think where the confusion comes in is the word “God”. God the Father and Jesus Christ are both God. So, in the verses in question it could well read as follows: Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (Christ) gave unto him (John), to shew unto his (Christ’s) servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he (Christ) sent and signified it by his (Christ’s) angel unto his (Christ’s) servant John: Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you (the seven churches), and peace, from him (Christ) which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his (Christ’s) throne; Rev 1:8 I (Christ) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (Christ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty (Christ). Remember the Book of Revelation is the Revelation of Christ and about Christ. Because you seem to believe that God the Father is telling John what to say about Christ you have a whole different perspective on this, one which is clearly wrong if you look at this closer. Christ is the one telling John what to say in regard to Christ and the end times. Sheds a whole new light on things. Rev. 1:17-19 is John revealing what Christ told him to say in regard to Christ. Revelation is the Revelation of Christ as revealed by John. Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; James writes: Revelation 21 talks about a new heaven and a new earth and also the Alpha and Omega. Verse 3 says in part, “…Behold the tabernacle of the God [direct article in Greek although not shown in the KJV] (indicating to me the Father Himself) is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people and [the] God [YHWH] himself shall be with them and be their God [Elohim or Mighty One as no direct article]. Verse 6 of Rev. 21 then records John writing that the One saying this is saying, “I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end…” Verse 7 then says, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God [Elohim or Mighty One] and he shall be my son.” The first fruits or saints will have as their Husband the Savior and would not be known as ‘sons’ to Yayshua or Jesus. Darwin & Laura write: Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:1-7 is talking about Jesus Christ and God the Father. Verses 2-4, God here is probably the Father. In verse 5 Christ is the “he” that sat upon the throne. The second “he” in verse 5 is again referring to Christ because: “and he said unto me (John) write”. See again Rev. 1:1. Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (Christ) gave unto him (John), to shew unto his (Christ’s) servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he (Christ) sent and signified it by his (Christ’s) angel unto his (Christ’s) servant John: In verse 6 ‘and he (has to be Christ) said unto me (John is writing), it is done. I am Alpha and Omega”, (this has to be Christ because the “I am” comes right after the phrase, “and he (Christ) said unto me.” (John is writing it down.) We get a better understanding of scripture when we read verses in context of other verses and put in the names of the people who are speaking, as below in verses 5 to 7. Rev 21:5 And he (Christ) that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I (Christ) make all things new. And he (Christ) said unto me (John), Write: for these words are true and faithful. Rev 21:6 And he (Christ) said unto me (John), It is done. I (Christ) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I (Christ) will give unto him (People) that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:7 He (Christ still talking) that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I (Christ still talking) will be his (People’s) God, and he (People) shall be my (Christ’s) son. Why or how? See Isaiah 9:6: Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. So, is Christ God? Yes or No, you answer. Is God the Father God? Yes or No, you answer. James writes: So as such, it is my current belief the Alpha and Omega is the Father. The biggest and most important thing to remember as potential helpmeets to our Savior is to love one another as he has loved us (John 15:12,17) and to bring forth fruit (v16). This I sincerely believe you and Darwin are doing in putting out your newsletter for many to go over and try and prove what is truth – and what is not truth. We always need to be willing to change if we come to see and prove something different. That includes me. Laura writes: Thank you, James, for the compliment. We sincerely do hope that we are encouraging people to study, reveal what they have learned and love others all at the same time. Of course, we do not believe in regard to you on this subject. James has sent many items here for publication that we do agree with him on, but this is just not one of them. ————————————- For those who do not have enough information in regard to this subject, I would like to provide some other verses here, because even though we did not agree with James’s article, we pulled some very fine nuggets from scripture to back up what we say. Things we had not thought of before. It is hard to separate God and Christ because they are One: Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.’ And Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: In other words, God and Christ are one and they also want us all to be one with them. So, the term God is a blanket term which can be used for either one of them or both of them together. Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isa 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: Isa 44:4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses. Isa 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD’S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel. Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Look at verse 44:6 closely, because it is another one of those verses that appears to be talking about two different people as Rev. 1:1 appeared to James Steinle. Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD (Christ) the King of Israel (Christ), and his (Israel’s) redeemer the LORD of hosts (Christ); I (Christ) am the first, and I (Christ) am the last; and beside me (Christ) there is no God (Christ). Remember God and Christ are one in purpose. They are on the same page. Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. This is Christ again declaring He is the first and the last. Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Christ was the God of the Old Testament: 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Christ created all things: Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Christ had the same Glory as His Father before he became a man as he again regained after He was resurrected. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Here is the crux of the matter. It would be no big deal for a created being or a regular human being to die for our sins. The only one who could die for our sins would be God. Christ volunteered to die for our sins and what he gave up to become a man was the glory or eternal life he had before. He gave up everything He had to become one of us and die for our sins. Only God could redeem us from sin. Christ is called God Almighty here: Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Read Rev. 16:14 in context of the scriptures around it and you will see God Almighty here is Christ. Here is another example of Christ being called God Almighty: Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Talking about Christ.) Christ has many roles and names: Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Then the last one: 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Before you get all excited in believing that Christ has fully turned over everything to the Father, read Revelation Chapters 21 and 22 in their entirety and you will find they rule together once the new heavens and the new earth are completed. (The Old King James Bible was used throughout unless otherwise stated.)

Iron Sharpening Iron
In regard to: Was Our Savior Created?
Article by James Steinle
Comments by Darwin & Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)

Laura writes:
I hate to mark all over what someone else has written, so James Steinle’s “Iron Sharpening Iron” appears before this in its entirety. In this copy you will find our comments to what he has written.

James writes:
Laura, I appreciate your input on my thoughts and article, Was Our Savior Created? I certainly do not intend that my current understanding is to be a doctrine that everyone should believe; but some thoughts to consider as a possibility. When our Savior comes and hopefully resurrects us, He will certainly correct what is needed to be corrected in us; and we I would hope, will say, “Yes Sir, I stand corrected! Thank You!”

Laura writes:
God gave us His Holy Spirit and the Bible to guide us into all truth. The thing is that when we study, we have to get rid of our belief system and read what the Bible actually says. If you do that you will understand more truth. If you are looking for coded messages as some are, you are going down the wrong path. Also, if you believe that everything that pops into your mind comes from only God, you would be wrong. Satan is the prince of the air. Satan pelts our thoughts with misinformation 24/7 if we let him. When the two witnesses come on the scene, they will be teaching us truth also. Let’s hope we all listen to what they tell us.

James writes:
One thing I understand a little differently than likely most, is something you mentioned about Revelation 1:11, which in the KJV says, “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” Most believe the Alpha and Omega here refers to the Savior. It is my current understanding the first part of this verse was added in sometime in the past as many Greek manuscripts do not include “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and”. For example, see:

https://www.kjvtoday.com/book-of-revelation/ (Talks about the various translations difficulties in Rev. including 1:11) and also https://www.biblebookprofiler.com/the-forgery-of-revelation-1-8-11.html#forgeryrev1-11

Laura writes:
Actually, I did not reference Revelation 1:11 to you in my comments to your article. Revelation 1:11 was mentioned in a quote I gave from the Albert Barnes Commentary: So apparently Albert Barnes does not realize the first part of that verse was not in most or all early manuscripts. I actually did not know that myself until you brought it to my attention.

King James Version
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Codex Sinaiticus
1:11 saying: What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven churches, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Adam Clarke
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and – This whole clause is wanting in ABC, thirty-one others; some editions; the Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Slavonic, Vulgate, Arethas, Andreas, and Primasius. Griesbach has left it out of the text.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and — The oldest manuscripts, omit all of this clause (in Rev. 1:11).

James writes:
In Rev. 1:1 it shows the main original revelator is the Father. Verse 4 talks about a Being in Heaven which is mentioned as “him” and “his Throne”, which would be referencing the Father as verse 5 says in referencing who was also greeting them included, “and from Jesus Christ…”. Verse 8 says,

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.’ I bolded “the Almighty” as there is only One who can be The Almighty (or All Mighty) and that would be the Father Himself. Verses 17-19 of Chapter 1 would then be the Savior speaking what the Father told him to speak.

Laura writes:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I think where the confusion comes in is the word “God”. God the Father and Jesus Christ are both God. So, in the verses in question it could well read as follows:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (Christ) gave unto him (John), to shew unto his (Christ’s) servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he (Christ) sent and signified it by his (Christ’s) angel unto his (Christ’s) servant John:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you (the seven churches), and peace, from him (Christ) which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his (Christ’s) throne;

Rev 1:8 I (Christ) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord (Christ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty (Christ).

Remember the Book of Revelation is the Revelation of Christ and about Christ. Because you seem to believe that God the Father is telling John what to say about Christ you have a whole different perspective on this, one which is clearly wrong if you look at this closer. Christ is the one telling John what to say in regard to Christ and the end times. Sheds a whole new light on things.

Rev. 1:17-19 is John revealing what Christ told him to say in regard to Christ. Revelation is the Revelation of Christ as revealed by John.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

James writes:
Revelation 21 talks about a new heaven and a new earth and also the Alpha and Omega. Verse 3 says in part, “…Behold the tabernacle of the God [direct article in Greek although not shown in the KJV] (indicating to me the Father Himself) is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people and [the] God [YHWH] himself shall be with them and be their God [Elohim or Mighty One as no direct article]. Verse 6 of Rev. 21 then records John writing that the One saying this is saying, “I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end…” Verse 7 then says, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God [Elohim or Mighty One] and he shall be my son.” The first fruits or saints will have as their Husband the Savior and would not be known as ‘sons’ to Yayshua or Jesus.

Darwin & Laura write:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:1-7 is talking about Jesus Christ and God the Father. Verses 2-4, God here is probably the Father. In verse 5 Christ is the “he” that sat upon the throne. The second “he” in verse 5 is again referring to Christ because: “and he said unto me (John) write”. See again Rev. 1:1.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (Christ) gave unto him (John), to shew unto his (Christ’s) servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he (Christ) sent and signified it by his (Christ’s) angel unto his (Christ’s) servant John:

In verse 6 ‘and he (has to be Christ) said unto me (John is writing), it is done. I am Alpha and Omega”, (this has to be Christ because the “I am” comes right after the phrase, “and he (Christ) said unto me.” (John is writing it down.)

We get a better understanding of scripture when we read verses in context of other verses and put in the names of the people who are speaking, as below in verses 5 to 7.

Rev 21:5 And he (Christ) that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I (Christ) make all things new. And he (Christ) said unto me (John), Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And he (Christ) said unto me (John), It is done. I (Christ) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I (Christ) will give unto him (People) that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He (Christ still talking) that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I (Christ still talking) will be his (People’s) God, and he (People) shall be my (Christ’s) son.

Why or how? See Isaiah 9:6:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

So, is Christ God? Yes or No, you answer. Is God the Father God? Yes or No, you answer.

James writes:
So as such, it is my current belief the Alpha and Omega is the Father. The biggest and most important thing to remember as potential helpmeets to our Savior is to love one another as he has loved us (John 15:12,17) and to bring forth fruit (v16). This I sincerely believe you and Darwin are doing in putting out your newsletter for many to go over and try and prove what is truth – and what is not truth. We always need to be willing to change if we come to see and prove something different. That includes me.

Laura writes:
Thank you, James, for the compliment. We sincerely do hope that we are encouraging people to study, reveal what they have learned and love others all at the same time. Of course, we do not believe in regard to you on this subject. James has sent many items here for publication that we do agree with him on, but this is just not one of them.

————————————-
For those who do not have enough information in regard to this subject, I would like to provide some other verses here, because even though we did not agree with James’s article, we pulled some very fine nuggets from scripture to back up what we say. Things we had not thought of before.

It is hard to separate God and Christ because they are One: Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.’ And Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

In other words, God and Christ are one and they also want us all to be one with them. So, the term God is a blanket term which can be used for either one of them or both of them together.

Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isa 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: Isa 44:4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses. Isa 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD’S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel. Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Look at verse 44:6 closely, because it is another one of those verses that appears to be talking about two different people as Rev. 1:1 appeared to James Steinle.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD (Christ) the King of Israel (Christ), and his (Israel’s) redeemer the LORD of hosts (Christ); I (Christ) am the first, and I (Christ) am the last; and beside me (Christ) there is no God (Christ).

Remember God and Christ are one in purpose. They are on the same page.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

This is Christ again declaring He is the first and the last.

Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Christ was the God of the Old Testament: 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Christ created all things: Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Christ had the same Glory as His Father before he became a man as he again regained after He was resurrected. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Here is the crux of the matter. It would be no big deal for a created being or a regular human being to die for our sins. The only one who could die for our sins would be God. Christ volunteered to die for our sins and what he gave up to become a man was the glory or eternal life he had before. He gave up everything He had to become one of us and die for our sins. Only God could redeem us from sin.

Christ is called God Almighty here: Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Read Rev. 16:14 in context of the scriptures around it and you will see God Almighty here is Christ.

Here is another example of Christ being called God Almighty:

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Talking about Christ.)

Christ has many roles and names: Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Then the last one: 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Before you get all excited in believing that Christ has fully turned over everything to the Father, read Revelation Chapters 21 and 22 in their entirety and you will find they rule together once the new heavens and the new earth are completed.

(The Old King James Bible was used throughout unless otherwise stated.)

Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: Was Our Savior Created? Article by James Steinle Comments by John Leitch (Canada)
It seems to me, much of the problem people are having with Mr. Steinle’s article is the word “created”. I would ask the question, was Eve created or is she just a multiplication of Adam? In Matthew chapter 14 when Jesus fed the 5000 people, did the Messiah create more bread & fish, or did He just multiply what was provided? In 2 Kings chapter 4, was extra oil created, or was the oil that was already there, multiplied? I believe to understand my Father and His Son (my brother), and all spiritual things, a person should look to the physical things of creation. Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” If we look to the beginnings of the human species (which are being transformed into the image & likeness of the two beings in Genesis 1:26), we will notice that the human species started with one individual (Adam) and then Eve came out of Adam (without the help of human hands). Did Eve always exist as a separate entity? Although Eve was only a separate entity after she came out of Adam, she pre-existed as part of Adam before this. This is how the human species started and multiplied. Daniel 2:34–Septuagint (Does this help us understand the multiplication of the God species?) Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder. The question is; “who is this stone and who is this mountain who the stone came out of”? I personally see similarities between Adam & Eve and the Father & the one that was to become Jesus the Christ. Was Eve of the human species after she came out of Adam? Most would agree she was. Was Christ of the God kind (species) after He came out of the mountain (the Father)? I am of the opinion He was of the God kind in a similar way as Eve was of the humankind. This same cut out stone is mentioned in 1 Peter 2:6 and Matthew 21:42. Luke 20:18 (does this not sound like the stone in Daniel 2:34) *“Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”* At this point, my understanding is this. I believe this is the gospel message that we are to preach to the world. All through eternity there was only one Being with no beginning (1 Timothy 6:16), and that Being decided to increase Himself into a large family of sons & daughters of His same “kind” (Genesis 1:26). My Father’s “kind” will increase in a similar way as all other physical species increase. Every member of a species is in that species because they were born into that species. The God “kind” will increase in a similar way through a begettal and a rebirth (John 3:3). Today, people may be in the image of God but will not be in His likeness until their rebirth at resurrection. A photograph captures a person’s image, but it is not their likeness. The photograph cannot think, cry or laugh, nor can it choose right from wrong. The Gospel message is that my Father is in a process of multiplying Himself through a begettal and rebirth into His image and likeness. First of all, we know that Christ had to precede everything else, because God created everything that was created through Jesus the Christ. —Ephesians 3:9–KJV (God created all things, but He did it through Jesus Christ) “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:” There are also two other places that agree with this statement (John 1:3 & Hebrews 1:2). Is there anywhere in Scripture that Christ claims He is the beginning of that creative process (as Daniel 2:34 implies) of the one supreme God that always existed? Well, yes there is. Revelation 3:14 (Is this referencing Daniel 2:34?) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; This same beginning of creation is also mentioned in John I:1-2. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God”. Here we see the author is speaking of a beginning, but the Father has no beginning. So what beginning is the author referring to? Would it not be reasonable to conclude that he is referring to the Father’s plan of multiplying Himself. This same beginning of Christ and Christ being sent forth to create everything and to be the savior of mankind is mentioned in John 17:8 –KJV. “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out* from thee,* (Daniel 2:34) and they have believed that thou didst send me“. Herbert Armstrong and many others believe there were always two Gods and they both had eternal life but does scripture back this up? Although there is scripture that does agree with everything starting with one God, I have not personally found any that agree with “Trinity” (three individual Gods) or “Twinity” (two ever living Gods). 1 Timothy 6:14-16 (The reason Christ had immortality is because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) and Christ gave up that immortality (Philippians 2:6-8) to be born of Mary and go through a begettal & rebirth process.) “Which in his times he (Christ) shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen”. Eve existed as long as Adam because she came out of Adam, but she did not exist as a separate entity until she came out. The Messiah existed as long as the Father because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) but He did not exist as a separate entity until He came out. Hebrews 7:3 (Melchisedec (aka–Christ) has the same personal history as the Father because he came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) the same as Eve came out of Adam.) *“Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”* What Mr. Steinle and I are presenting, is exactly what got the Messiah crucified. The Jewish religion views coming out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) or being begotten & born of God is blasphemy and worthy of a death sentence. The Jewish religion believes God is a species of one and it will always be that way. It seems that many believe my Father is incapable of multiplying Himself through a begettal and birth process. The gospel message is that the humankind through a metamorphosis (so-to-speak) is capable of becoming the God kind through a begettal of the Father and a rebirth. The wonderful fantastic message the New Testament authors brought (Luke 16:16) was, people, although being born into the “kingdom of humans” have the potential of being reborn into the “God Kingdom” (John 3:3). Farmer logic (If the ever living God (1 Timothy 6:16) begets a person, what does that person think they will be when born?) –When my bull begot something; when it is born, it was always a cattle beast. –When my ram begot something; when it was born, it was always a sheep. –When the tomcat begot something; when it was born, it was always a bunch of cats. –When a Maple tree drops its seed, farmer logic tells me, when it sprouts from the ground, it will become another maple tree. I can’t recall it ever being a spruce, oak, cedar, or apple tree. My brothers and sisters, one of the foundational teachings of the bible is that “kind” begets “kind”. That’s it for what it is worth.

Iron Sharpening Iron
In regard to: Was Our Savior Created?
Article by James Steinle
Comments by John Leitch (Canada)

It seems to me, much of the problem people are having with Mr. Steinle’s article is the word “created”. I would ask the question, was Eve created or is she just a multiplication of Adam? In Matthew chapter 14 when Jesus fed the 5000 people, did the Messiah create more bread & fish, or did He just multiply what was provided? In 2 Kings chapter 4, was extra oil created, or was the oil that was already there, multiplied?

I believe to understand my Father and His Son (my brother), and all spiritual things, a person should look to the physical things of creation.

Romans 1:20
“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

If we look to the beginnings of the human species (which are being transformed into the image & likeness of the two beings in Genesis 1:26), we will notice that the human species started with one individual (Adam) and then Eve came out of Adam (without the help of human hands). Did Eve always exist as a separate entity? Although Eve was only a separate entity after she came out of Adam, she pre-existed as part of Adam before this. This is how the human species started and multiplied.

Daniel 2:34–Septuagint (Does this help us understand the multiplication of the God species?)
Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder. The question is; “who is this stone and who is this mountain who the stone came out of”? I personally see similarities between Adam & Eve and the Father & the one that was to become Jesus the Christ. Was Eve of the human species after she came out of Adam? Most would agree she was. Was Christ of the God kind (species) after He came out of the mountain (the Father)? I am of the opinion He was of the God kind in a similar way as Eve was of the humankind. This same cut out stone is mentioned in 1 Peter 2:6 and Matthew 21:42.

Luke 20:18 (does this not sound like the stone in Daniel 2:34)
“Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

At this point, my understanding is this.
I believe this is the gospel message that we are to preach to the world.

All through eternity there was only one Being with no beginning (1 Timothy 6:16), and that Being decided to increase Himself into a large family of sons & daughters of His same “kind” (Genesis 1:26). My Father’s “kind” will increase in a similar way as all other physical species increase. Every member of a species is in that species because they were born into that species. The God “kind” will increase in a similar way through a begettal and a rebirth (John 3:3). Today, people may be in the image of God but will not be in His likeness until their rebirth at resurrection. A photograph captures a person’s image, but it is not their likeness. The photograph cannot think, cry or laugh, nor can it choose right from wrong. The Gospel message is that my Father is in a process of multiplying Himself through a begettal and rebirth into His image and likeness.

First of all, we know that Christ had to precede everything else, because God created everything that was created through Jesus the Christ.

—Ephesians 3:9–KJV (God created all things, but He did it through Jesus Christ)
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”  There are also two other places that agree with this statement (John 1:3 & Hebrews 1:2).

Is there anywhere in Scripture that Christ claims He is the beginning of that creative process (as Daniel 2:34 implies) of the one supreme God that always existed? Well, yes there is.

Revelation 3:14 (Is this referencing Daniel 2:34?)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This same beginning of creation is also mentioned in John I:1-2. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God”.  Here we see the author is speaking of a beginning, but the Father has no beginning.  So what beginning is the author referring to? Would it not be reasonable to conclude that he is referring to the Father’s plan of multiplying Himself.

This same beginning of Christ and Christ being sent forth to create everything and to be the savior of mankind is mentioned in John 17:8 –KJV. “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from thee, (Daniel 2:34) and they have believed that thou didst send me“.

Herbert Armstrong and many others believe there were always two Gods and they both had eternal life but does scripture back this up? Although there is scripture that does agree with everything starting with one God, I have not personally found any that agree with “Trinity” (three individual Gods) or “Twinity” (two ever living Gods).

1 Timothy 6:14-16 (The reason Christ had immortality is because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) and Christ gave up that immortality (Philippians 2:6-8) to be born of Mary and go through a begettal & rebirth process.) “Which in his times he (Christ) shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen”.

Eve existed as long as Adam because she came out of Adam, but she did not exist as a separate entity until she came out. The Messiah existed as long as the Father because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) but He did not exist as a separate entity until He came out.

Hebrews 7:3 (Melchisedec (aka–Christ) has the same personal history as the Father because he came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) the same as Eve came out of Adam.) “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

What Mr. Steinle and I are presenting, is exactly what got the Messiah crucified. The Jewish religion views coming out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) or being begotten & born of God is blasphemy and worthy of a death sentence. The Jewish religion believes God is a species of one and it will always be that way. It seems that many believe my Father is incapable of multiplying Himself through a begettal and birth process.

The gospel message is that the humankind through a metamorphosis (so-to-speak) is capable of becoming the God kind through a begettal of the Father and a rebirth. The wonderful fantastic message the New Testament authors brought (Luke 16:16) was, people, although being born into the “kingdom of humans” have the potential of being reborn into the “God Kingdom” (John 3:3).

Farmer logic (If the ever living God (1 Timothy 6:16) begets a person, what does that person think they will be when born?)
–When my bull begot something; when it is born, it was always a cattle beast.
–When my ram begot something; when it was born, it was always a sheep.
–When the tomcat begot something; when it was born, it was always a bunch of cats.
–When a Maple tree drops its seed, farmer logic tells me, when it sprouts from the ground, it will become another maple tree. I can’t recall it ever being a spruce, oak, cedar, or apple tree.

My brothers and sisters, one of the foundational teachings of the bible is that “kind” begets “kind”.

That’s it for what it is worth.

Iron Sharpening Iron In regard to: Was Our Savior Created? Article by James Steinle Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)
John Leitch said: It seems to me, much of the problem people are having with Mr. Steinle’s article is the word “created”. I would ask the question, was Eve created or is she just a multiplication of Adam? In Matthew chapter 14 when Jesus fed the 5000 people, did the Messiah create more bread & fish, or did He just multiply what was provided? In 2 Kings chapter 4, was extra oil created, or was the oil that was already there, multiplied? Laura Lee says: Personally, I believe you are playing games with words in order to make up a false doctrine. See 1 Timothy 2:13 where Eve was “formed”. In 1 Corinthians 11:9 Eve was created and in Genesis 2:22 She was made. Made, created, and formed are all interchangeable and mean the same thing. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. *************** Bread and the Fish** Mat 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. Mat 14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. Mat 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children. *************** Elisha and the Oil** 2Ki 4:1 Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen. 2Ki 4:2 And Elisha said unto her, What shall I do for thee? tell me, what hast thou in the house? And she said, Thine handmaid hath not any thing in the house, save a pot of oil. 2Ki 4:3 Then he said, Go, borrow thee vessels abroad of all thy neighbours, even empty vessels; borrow not a few. 2Ki 4:4 And when thou art come in, thou shalt shut the door upon thee and upon thy sons, and shalt pour out into all those vessels, and thou shalt set aside that which is full. 2Ki 4:5 So she went from him, and shut the door upon her and upon her sons, who brought the vessels to her; and she poured out. 2Ki 4:6 And it came to pass, when the vessels were full, that she said unto her son, Bring me yet a vessel. And he said unto her, There is not a vessel more. And the oil stayed. 2Ki 4:7 Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy children of the rest. *************** Both of these are considered miracles. Wait until you are down to your last morsel of food and pray to God for food and see what happens. All of the sudden you may find food in your house that you didn’t even know you had. If this happens to you some day you will consider it a miracle for you will know there was no food in your house before you prayed to God. Angel Sighting at: Angel Sighting : Church of God, Bismarck, The “New” Church of God Messenger (church-of-god-bismarck.org) When this miracle happened to me, I was not a Sabbath Keeper, I did not even go to any church at this time. Did God just multiply my money or was it a miracle? I had $30.00 cash on me. I told the guy in the garage that I needed money for food. It cost $25.00 to fix my car a low price even for the eighty’s. I had $5.00 left for food. To me this was a miracle. For one thing, most people have probably stopped at truck stops numerous times and know they are very busy no matter what time of the day you are there. This was a truck stop during daylight hours and there were only three people there besides myself. At the garage, the guy behind the counter that took my money and the mechanic that fixed my car. When I went to the restaurant a few feet away, there were cars parked there and the truck that the truck driver was in that helped me was there but when I went into the restaurant which was quite large there was only one woman there and no one else. In case you are unaware, miracles are happenings which cannot be explained because they fall within a spiritual realm and are believed by faith by those who experience them. There is a purpose to a miracle, and I believe that when you use it in the manner that you did you do God a disservice by not believing that such miracles can even take place. John Leitch said: I believe to understand my Father and His Son (my brother), and all spiritual things, a person should look to the physical things of creation. Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” If we look to the beginnings of the human species (which are being transformed into the image & likeness of the two beings in Genesis 1:26), we will notice that the human species started with one individual (Adam) and then Eve came out of Adam (without the help of human hands). Did Eve always exist as a separate entity? Although Eve was only a separate entity after she came out of Adam, she pre-existed as part of Adam before this. This is how the human species started and multiplied. Laura Lee says:** Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. People are without excuse when they are unable to see God through the things he has made. Instead of worshipping the true God they want to make stuff up in their foolish heart similar to what you are doing here. Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So, when your parents got married and had you, you are saying that you preexisted in your parents. Here is the problem with this theory. If your parents had married two different people, you would not even be a blimp on the radar screen. You never would have been born. And to carry that one step further you would never even know that you did not exist. So, let’s get back to Adam and Eve now. I am pretty sure that God the Father and Christ our brother had the entire creation mapped out from the foundation of the world. So yes, God knew that Christ was going to create both Adam and Eve. However, Adam did not exist in the dirt any more than Eve existed in Adam before Christ created them. Once God breathed into Adam, he became a man and the same happened to Eve. Before God created them, they did not exist. This can be proven, and you should understand it being a farmer and all. If a farmer builds a barn, he first gets the materials together so he can build it. So now you have a pile of building materials together in your field. Is your barn in the materials or could you take those same materials and build something else, for example two sheds, one for goats and one for sheep. The thing is none of those materials are anything except materials until you build something out of it. In other words, the barn, the goat shed, the sheep shed, none of it exists until you build it. I build cat condos, so I know. My pile of material is nothing until I make it into a cat condo. John Leitch said: Daniel 2:34–Septuagint (Does this help us understand the multiplication of the God species?) Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder. The question is; “who is this stone and who is this mountain who the stone came out of”? I personally see similarities between Adam & Eve and the Father & the one that was to become Jesus the Christ. Was Eve of the human species after she came out of Adam? Most would agree she was. Was Christ of the God kind (species) after He came out of the mountain (the Father)? I am of the opinion He was of the God kind in a similar way as Eve was of the humankind. This same cut out stone is mentioned in 1 Peter 2:6 and Matthew 21:42. Luke 20:18 (does this not sound like the stone in Daniel 2:34) *“Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”* Laura Lee says: Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay and brake them to pieces. The Bible is not a code book. If a person has God’s Holy Spirit, they will be able to understand what the Bible says. The below scriptures tell you that the stone represents Christ, but the mountain here does not represent God. This whole thing is about a dream that Nebuchadnezzar had, and Daniel interpreted for him. By the way Daniel was even promoted because of knowing both the dream and the interpretation of the dream. God Reveals Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream Dan 2:17 Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions: Dan 2:18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. Dan 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: Dan 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. Dan 2:23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king’s matter. Dan 2:24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation. Dan 2:25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation. Dan 2:26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof? Dan 2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. Daniel Interprets the Dream Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. Dan 2:32 This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, Dan 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. *Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were* of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.** Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. This is a prophecy for the end times about the Kingdom of God. In case someone does not understand what is being said here. The stone represents Christ, and both Mountains represent the Kingdom of God. The stone, Christ will bust the statue which represents all the kingdoms of the earth and Christ will by extension become a mountain which represents the Kingdom of God. This is an allegory/metaphor, a parable and a prophecy all rolled into one. Christ is not really a stone or a mountain or even a Kingdom. In this set of scripture, the stone represents Christ, and the mountain represents both Christ and His Kingdom, because Kingdoms were identified with their Kings. What John is trying to tell everyone here is that the Mountain represents God, and the stone represents Christ. In keeping with John’s multiplication theory, he is trying to tell everyone that this is how God created Christ. John’s theory is God being represented as the mountain took a little piece of himself from His person which is represented by the stone here and that is how Christ came to be. In other words, Christ is a multiplication of God. The problem with that theory is that both mountains here represent the Kingdom of God, one present and one future. *************** Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? All of the above scriptures are talking about Christ being the chief cornerstone that the builders rejected. Again, Christ is represented as a stone. If you read each of these scriptures in context of what is actually being said you will find that Christ is the chief cornerstone when it is talking about falling upon the stone and being broken it is talking about people who come to believe in Christ are broken people, and when it talks about being crushed to powder it is talking about crushing those who don’t believe. This is both an allegory/metaphor and a parable in all three places. John has chosen these verses because similar wording is used in these sets of scripture as the wording in Daniel 2:34. He is trying to prove that God the Father took a part of Himself and made Christ. God the Father is not the creator God. God the Father created nothing. Christ is the creator God and Christ cannot create Himself. Christ was not created. Difference between an allegory and a metaphor: In general, a metaphor is a short phrase or paragraph that compares two seemingly unrelated things to make a point, while an allegory is a long narrative that uses a seemingly unrelated story to teach a lesson or prove a point. From: Allegory Vs Metaphor: What’s The Difference? (becomeawritertoday.com) John Leitch said: At this point, my understanding is this. I believe this is the gospel message that we are to preach to the world. All through eternity there was only one Being with no beginning (1 Timothy 6:16), and that Being decided to increase Himself into a large family of sons & daughters of His same “kind” (Genesis 1:26). My Father’s “kind” will increase in a similar way as all other physical species increase. Every member of a species is in that species because they were born into that species. The God “kind” will increase in a similar way through a begettal and a rebirth (John 3:3). Today, people may be in the image of God but will not be in His likeness until their rebirth at resurrection. A photograph captures a person’s image, but it is not their likeness. The photograph cannot think, cry or laugh, nor can it choose right from wrong. The Gospel message is that my Father is in a process of multiplying Himself through a begettal and rebirth into His image and likeness. Laura Lee says:** 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. We know this scripture is talking about God the Father because of this scripture: Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. The word immortality here is used only 3 times in the NT. It is Strong’s number G110, and it means deathless. God the Father has never died thus an absolutely true statement about the Father. The thing is that Christ was the same as God the Father until he was born of Mary and then died. When God the Father resurrected Him he was once again restored to the same glory as the Father and as he had before He was born of Mary. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 tells us Christ was the same as the Father before He died and was resurrected and the same after He died and was resurrected. 1 Timothy 6:16 does not prove there was only one God and that Christ was created. *************** Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. I have never seen anyone dispute the fact that people and animals are always born into their own kind although I am sure such a false doctrine is out there someplace. I do however take exception with your idea that God the Father is like a blob of something whereby if He just removes a piece of himself, that piece will become another God for example Christ. John Leitch said: First of all, we know that Christ had to precede everything else, because God created everything that was created through Jesus the Christ. —Ephesians 3:9–KJV (God created all things, but** He did it through Jesus Christ) “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:” There are also two other places that agree with this statement (John 1:3 & Hebrews 1:2). Laura Lee says: Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; And at last, we agree on something. John Leitch said: Is there anywhere in Scripture that Christ claims He is the beginning of that creative process (as Daniel 2:34 implies) of the one supreme God that always existed? Well, yes there is. Revelation 3:14 (Is this referencing Daniel 2:34?) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Laura Lee says: Daniel 2:34 has been debunked. The mountain does not represent God. *Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were* of iron and clay and brake them to pieces. Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ************* Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Since we are in agreement that everything that was created was created by Christ and that God created nothing then you can’t now all of the sudden have God creating Christ no matter how you believe God did it. When you study you should take everything you can find into consideration and a basic thing to do would be to look at other Bible versions as below. Revelation 3:14 is not talking about Christ being created. It is talking about Christ being the head of the entire creation, the chief of the creation, the source of the creation etc. and etc. Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: “This is what the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation, says: (Lexham English Bible) Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the assembly of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God: (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things says the Amen, the Witness—the Faithful and True—the Chief of the creation of God; (Literal Standard Version) Rev 3:14 ‘And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God; (Young’s Literal Translation) Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the head of God’s new order: (The Bible in Basic English) Rev 3:14 This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God’s creation. Listen to what I say. (Contemporary English Version) John Leitch said: This same beginning of creation is also mentioned in John 1:1-2. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God”. Here we see the author is speaking of a beginning, but the Father has no beginning. So what beginning is the author referring to? Would it not be reasonable to conclude that he is referring to the Father’s plan of multiplying Himself. Laura Lee says: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. A better wording of John 1:1-2 is found here: Joh 1:1 From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God. Joh 1:2 This Word was from the first in relation with God. (The Bible in Basic English) Strong’s Concordance #G746 backs up The Bible in Basic English. It is hard to grasp what eternity is, so most people would make a statement such as “in the beginning”. In the beginning of what? Eternity which has no beginning or end. It is better stated “From the First”. You can’t use this verse to prove Christ was created. It actually proves they were together from the first or through all eternity. John Leitch said:** This same beginning of Christ and Christ being sent forth to create everything and to be the savior of mankind is mentioned in John 17:8 –KJV. “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out* from thee,* (Daniel 2:34) and they have believed that thou didst send me“. Laura Lee says: Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am sure the problem you are having with this verse is the part where it says “I came out from thee”. Most people don’t have a problem with this verse because in context they know that what it is saying is that Christ is saying that God the Father told him what to say to the people and the people received the words and believed that Christ came from Heaven because God the Father sent him on this mission. It has nothing to do with multiplying God and nothing to do with Daniel 2:34 where the mountain was not represented by God. John Leitch said: Herbert Armstrong and many others believe there were always two Gods and they both had eternal life but does scripture back this up? Although there is scripture that does agree with everything starting with one God, I have not personally found any that agree with “Trinity” (three individual Gods) or “Twinity” (two ever living Gods). Laura Lee says: All I can then say to you at this point is that you either can’t read or you just don’t understand what you are reading when you do read it. There is no Bible support for a trinity such as in “Father, Son and Holy Ghost” but there is plenty of support for two God’s, God the Father and Christ His Son being ever living God’s. John Leitch said: 1 Timothy 6:14-16 (The reason Christ had immortality is because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) and Christ gave up that immortality (Philippians 2:6-8) to be born of Mary and go through a begettal & rebirth process.) “Which in his times he (Christ) shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen”. Laura Lee says: *Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were* of iron and clay and brake them to pieces. Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. The stone was Christ and the stone became the mountain and by extension the Kingdom of God because Christ is the King of the Kingdom of God on earth. ************* 1 Timothy 6:14-16 The word immortality here is used only 3 times in the NT. It is Strong’s number G110, and it means deathless. God the Father has never died thus an absolutely true statement about the Father. The thing is that Christ was the same as God the Father until he was born of Mary and then died. When God the Father resurrected Him he was once again restored to the same glory as the Father and as he had before He was born of Mary. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 1 Timothy 6:16 does not prove there was only one God and that Christ was created. ************* Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, (Lexham English Bible) Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, (World English Bible) The last two verses here captures the context of these verses the best. In context these verses say that Christ was God and was equal to God the Father but He did not have a problem with lowering himself to become a man and die for our sins. Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, (American Standard Version) Php 2:6 Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God. (Contemporary English Version) John Leitch said: Eve existed as long as Adam because she came out of Adam, but she did not exist as a separate entity until she came out. The Messiah existed as long as the Father because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) but He did not exist as a separate entity until He came out. Laura Lee says: I believe I debunked your theory in regard to this quite some time ago. John Leitch said: Hebrews 7:3 (Melchisedec (aka–Christ) has the same personal history as the Father because he came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) the same as Eve came out of Adam.) “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.” Laura Lee says: Remember John, Daniel 2:34 does not have a mountain that represents God, so if Hebrews 7:3 Melchizedek is Christ then it looks like He was an ever-living God just like God the Father. John Leitch said: What Mr. Steinle and I are presenting, is exactly what got the Messiah crucified. The Jewish religion views coming out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) or being begotten & born of God is blasphemy and worthy of a death sentence. The Jewish religion believes God is a species of one and it will always be that way. It seems that many believe my Father is incapable of multiplying Himself through a begettal and birth process. The gospel message is that the humankind through a metamorphosis (so-to-speak) is capable of becoming the God kind through a begettal of the Father and a rebirth. The wonderful, fantastic message the New Testament authors brought (Luke 16:16) was, people, although being born into the “kingdom of humans” have the potential of being reborn into the “God Kingdom” (John 3:3). Laura Lee says: What you were suggesting here is way more than a simple begettal and birth process. What you are suggesting here is creepy. You believe that Christ and Eve are both on the same level when it comes to existence. You believe that Christ and Eve existed before they existed (that is according to your theory). You make it sound like God is a big blob who can break pieces from Himself and make more God’s. This is one of the most far-fetched fables I have ever heard, and I certainly hope that James Steinle is smarter than to buy into this theory. John Leitch said: Farmer logic (If the ever living God (1 Timothy 6:16) begets a person, what does that person think they will be when born?) –When my bull begot something; when it is born, it was always a cattle beast. –When my ram begot something; when it was born, it was always a sheep. –When the tomcat begot something; when it was born, it was always a bunch of cats. –When a Maple tree drops its seed, farmer logic tells me, when it sprouts from the ground, it will become another maple tree. I can’t recall it ever being a spruce, oak, cedar, or apple tree. My brothers and sisters, one of the foundational teachings of the bible is that “kind” begets “kind”. That’s it for what it is worth. Laura Lee says:** This theory is really not worth the paper it is written on. This is more than a false doctrine. It is a creepy false doctrine, but then October is the month for creepy things. I don’t believe anyone would disagree with you that kind begets kind, but what you are suggesting here is not a begettal and birth process. It is as you claim a theory about multiplication and metamorphosis both of which seem as though they have roots mounted some place in evolution. And just in case I did not make myself clear in regard to Daniel 2:34 I will try to make it more clear here. When it says, “cut out without hands”, it is talking about a supernatural action. The first mountain represents the Kingdom of God in Heaven. The second mountain represents the Kingdom of God on Earth and by extension Christ. None of this verse or even the entire chapter of Daniel 2 is speaking of a multiplication, metamorphosis, begettal or birth of any person or God. This verse is part of a future prophecy about the Kingdom of God. While I was researching this paper, I did get stuck in one place at 5:00 in the morning on a night of insomnia. Yes, I do suffer from insomnia, does anyone have a cure for that? So, I did email a couple of people I have a great deal of respect for, but right after I emailed them, I already knew what the answer was at the point I got stuck. I actually liked both answers but one of the answers was really long and this was already getting very long so instead of printing them here I may use them in another way later. So, I want to thank those two people for their really quick response to me the day I got stuck. In conclusion, I sincerely hope that no one actually believes what John Leitch has suggested here. And to John Leitch I want to say, I have met you and talked with you in days gone by and I like you, sincerely like you as a person but my responsibility to show people what the Bible actually says is to those reading this newsletter. It takes precedence over friendship. My allegiance is to God the Father and Christ His Son. In the future and to John and whoever reads this, my suggestion is this. When you do research on any given subject blank your mind and say I need to look at this from a perspective that I myself may be wrong and if I am I will change my belief. Pray for Wisdom and Understanding because without it you will get nowhere. Always read all scripture in context of what it says. Use other Bible versions, use books you have or always wanted to get, use the internet but be careful of the internet as stuff is changing out there. Thank you, John, for sharing, I know this will be hard for you to read. The Old King James Bible was used throughout unless stated otherwise.

Iron Sharpening Iron
In regard to: Was Our Savior Created?
Article by James Steinle
Comments by Laura Lee (Bismarck, North Dakota)

John Leitch said:
It seems to me, much of the problem people are having with Mr. Steinle’s article is the word “created”. I would ask the question, was Eve created or is she just a multiplication of Adam? In Matthew chapter 14 when Jesus fed the 5000 people, did the Messiah create more bread & fish, or did He just multiply what was provided? In 2 Kings chapter 4, was extra oil created, or was the oil that was already there, multiplied?

Laura Lee says:
Personally, I believe you are playing games with words in order to make up a false doctrine. See 1 Timothy 2:13 where Eve was “formed”. In 1 Corinthians 11:9 Eve was created and in Genesis 2:22 She was made. Made, created, and formed are all interchangeable and mean the same thing.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

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Bread and the Fish
Mat 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. Mat 14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. Mat 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

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Elisha and the Oil
2Ki 4:1 Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen. 2Ki 4:2 And Elisha said unto her, What shall I do for thee? tell me, what hast thou in the house? And she said, Thine handmaid hath not any thing in the house, save a pot of oil. 2Ki 4:3 Then he said, Go, borrow thee vessels abroad of all thy neighbours, even empty vessels; borrow not a few. 2Ki 4:4 And when thou art come in, thou shalt shut the door upon thee and upon thy sons, and shalt pour out into all those vessels, and thou shalt set aside that which is full. 2Ki 4:5 So she went from him, and shut the door upon her and upon her sons, who brought the vessels to her; and she poured out. 2Ki 4:6 And it came to pass, when the vessels were full, that she said unto her son, Bring me yet a vessel. And he said unto her, There is not a vessel more. And the oil stayed. 2Ki 4:7 Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy children of the rest.

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Both of these are considered miracles. Wait until you are down to your last morsel of food and pray to God for food and see what happens. All of the sudden you may find food in your house that you didn’t even know you had. If this happens to you some day you will consider it a miracle for you will know there was no food in your house before you prayed to God.

Angel Sighting at: Angel Sighting : Church of God, Bismarck, The “New” Church of God Messenger (church-of-god-bismarck.org)

When this miracle happened to me, I was not a Sabbath Keeper, I did not even go to any church at this time. Did God just multiply my money or was it a miracle? I had $30.00 cash on me. I told the guy in the garage that I needed money for food. It cost $25.00 to fix my car a low price even for the eighty’s. I had $5.00 left for food. To me this was a miracle. For one thing, most people have probably stopped at truck stops numerous times and know they are very busy no matter what time of the day you are there. This was a truck stop during daylight hours and there were only three people there besides myself. At the garage, the guy behind the counter that took my money and the mechanic that fixed my car. When I went to the restaurant a few feet away, there were cars parked there and the truck that the truck driver was in that helped me was there but when I went into the restaurant which was quite large there was only one woman there and no one else. In case you are unaware, miracles are happenings which cannot be explained because they fall within a spiritual realm and are believed by faith by those who experience them. There is a purpose to a miracle, and I believe that when you use it in the manner that you did you do God a disservice by not believing that such miracles can even take place.

John Leitch said:
I believe to understand my Father and His Son (my brother), and all spiritual things, a person should look to the physical things of creation.

Romans 1:20
“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

If we look to the beginnings of the human species (which are being transformed into the image & likeness of the two beings in Genesis 1:26), we will notice that the human species started with one individual (Adam) and then Eve came out of Adam (without the help of human hands). Did Eve always exist as a separate entity? Although Eve was only a separate entity after she came out of Adam, she pre-existed as part of Adam before this. This is how the human species started and multiplied.

Laura Lee says:
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

People are without excuse when they are unable to see God through the things he has made. Instead of worshipping the true God they want to make stuff up in their foolish heart similar to what you are doing here.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So, when your parents got married and had you, you are saying that you preexisted in your parents. Here is the problem with this theory. If your parents had married two different people, you would not even be a blimp on the radar screen. You never would have been born. And to carry that one step further you would never even know that you did not exist.

So, let’s get back to Adam and Eve now. I am pretty sure that God the Father and Christ our brother had the entire creation mapped out from the foundation of the world. So yes, God knew that Christ was going to create both Adam and Eve. However, Adam did not exist in the dirt any more than Eve existed in Adam before Christ created them. Once God breathed into Adam, he became a man and the same happened to Eve. Before God created them, they did not exist.

This can be proven, and you should understand it being a farmer and all. If a farmer builds a barn, he first gets the materials together so he can build it. So now you have a pile of building materials together in your field. Is your barn in the materials or could you take those same materials and build something else, for example two sheds, one for goats and one for sheep. The thing is none of those materials are anything except materials until you build something out of it. In other words, the barn, the goat shed, the sheep shed, none of it exists until you build it. I build cat condos, so I know. My pile of material is nothing until I make it into a cat condo.

John Leitch said:
Daniel 2:34–Septuagint (Does this help us understand the multiplication of the God species?)
Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder. The question is; “who is this stone and who is this mountain who the stone came out of”? I personally see similarities between Adam & Eve and the Father & the one that was to become Jesus the Christ. Was Eve of the human species after she came out of Adam? Most would agree she was. Was Christ of the God kind (species) after He came out of the mountain (the Father)? I am of the opinion He was of the God kind in a similar way as Eve was of the humankind. This same cut out stone is mentioned in 1 Peter 2:6 and Matthew 21:42.

Luke 20:18 (does this not sound like the stone in Daniel 2:34)
“Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

Laura Lee says:
Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay and brake them to pieces.

The Bible is not a code book. If a person has God’s Holy Spirit, they will be able to understand what the Bible says. The below scriptures tell you that the stone represents Christ, but the mountain here does not represent God. This whole thing is about a dream that Nebuchadnezzar had, and Daniel interpreted for him. By the way Daniel was even promoted because of knowing both the dream and the interpretation of the dream.

God Reveals Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
Dan 2:17 Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions: Dan 2:18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. Dan 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: Dan 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. Dan 2:23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king’s matter. Dan 2:24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation. Dan 2:25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation. Dan 2:26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof? Dan 2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

Daniel Interprets the Dream
Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. Dan 2:32 This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, Dan 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

This is a prophecy for the end times about the Kingdom of God. In case someone does not understand what is being said here. The stone represents Christ, and both Mountains represent the Kingdom of God. The stone, Christ will bust the statue which represents all the kingdoms of the earth and Christ will by extension become a mountain which represents the Kingdom of God. This is an allegory/metaphor, a parable and a prophecy all rolled into one. Christ is not really a stone or a mountain or even a Kingdom. In this set of scripture, the stone represents Christ, and the mountain represents both Christ and His Kingdom, because Kingdoms were identified with their Kings.

What John is trying to tell everyone here is that the Mountain represents God, and the stone represents Christ. In keeping with John’s multiplication theory, he is trying to tell everyone that this is how God created Christ. John’s theory is God being represented as the mountain took a little piece of himself from His person which is represented by the stone here and that is how Christ came to be. In other words, Christ is a multiplication of God. The problem with that theory is that both mountains here represent the Kingdom of God, one present and one future.

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Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

All of the above scriptures are talking about Christ being the chief cornerstone that the builders rejected. Again, Christ is represented as a stone. If you read each of these scriptures in context of what is actually being said you will find that Christ is the chief cornerstone when it is talking about falling upon the stone and being broken it is talking about people who come to believe in Christ are broken people, and when it talks about being crushed to powder it is talking about crushing those who don’t believe. This is both an allegory/metaphor and a parable in all three places.

John has chosen these verses because similar wording is used in these sets of scripture as the wording in Daniel 2:34. He is trying to prove that God the Father took a part of Himself and made Christ. God the Father is not the creator God. God the Father created nothing. Christ is the creator God and Christ cannot create Himself. Christ was not created.

Difference between an allegory and a metaphor:
In general, a metaphor is a short phrase or paragraph that compares two seemingly unrelated things to make a point, while an allegory is a long narrative that uses a seemingly unrelated story to teach a lesson or prove a point.

From: Allegory Vs Metaphor: What’s The Difference? (becomeawritertoday.com)

John Leitch said:
At this point, my understanding is this.
I believe this is the gospel message that we are to preach to the world.

All through eternity there was only one Being with no beginning (1 Timothy 6:16), and that Being decided to increase Himself into a large family of sons & daughters of His same “kind” (Genesis 1:26). My Father’s “kind” will increase in a similar way as all other physical species increase. Every member of a species is in that species because they were born into that species. The God “kind” will increase in a similar way through a begettal and a rebirth (John 3:3). Today, people may be in the image of God but will not be in His likeness until their rebirth at resurrection. A photograph captures a person’s image, but it is not their likeness. The photograph cannot think, cry or laugh, nor can it choose right from wrong. The Gospel message is that my Father is in a process of multiplying Himself through a begettal and rebirth into His image and likeness.

Laura Lee says:
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We know this scripture is talking about God the Father because of this scripture:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The word immortality here is used only 3 times in the NT. It is Strong’s number G110, and it means deathless. God the Father has never died thus an absolutely true statement about the Father.

The thing is that Christ was the same as God the Father until he was born of Mary and then died. When God the Father resurrected Him he was once again restored to the same glory as the Father and as he had before He was born of Mary.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:5 tells us Christ was the same as the Father before He died and was resurrected and the same after He died and was resurrected.

1 Timothy 6:16 does not prove there was only one God and that Christ was created.

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Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I have never seen anyone dispute the fact that people and animals are always born into their own kind although I am sure such a false doctrine is out there someplace. I do however take exception with your idea that God the Father is like a blob of something whereby if He just removes a piece of himself, that piece will become another God for example Christ.

John Leitch said:
First of all, we know that Christ had to precede everything else, because God created everything that was created through Jesus the Christ.

—Ephesians 3:9–KJV (God created all things, but He did it through Jesus Christ)
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:” There are also two other places that agree with this statement (John 1:3 & Hebrews 1:2).

Laura Lee says:
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And at last, we agree on something.

John Leitch said:
Is there anywhere in Scripture that Christ claims He is the beginning of that creative process (as Daniel 2:34 implies) of the one supreme God that always existed? Well, yes there is.

Revelation 3:14 (Is this referencing Daniel 2:34?)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Laura Lee says:
Daniel 2:34 has been debunked. The mountain does not represent God.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay and brake them to pieces. Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

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Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Since we are in agreement that everything that was created was created by Christ and that God created nothing then you can’t now all of the sudden have God creating Christ no matter how you believe God did it.

When you study you should take everything you can find into consideration and a basic thing to do would be to look at other Bible versions as below. Revelation 3:14 is not talking about Christ being created. It is talking about Christ being the head of the entire creation, the chief of the creation, the source of the creation etc. and etc.

Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: “This is what the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation, says: (Lexham English Bible)

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the assembly of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God: (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things says the Amen, the Witness—the Faithful and True—the Chief of the creation of God; (Literal Standard Version)

Rev 3:14 ‘And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God; (Young’s Literal Translation)

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness, the head of God’s new order: (The Bible in Basic English)

Rev 3:14 This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God’s creation. Listen to what I say. (Contemporary English Version)

John Leitch said:
This same beginning of creation is also mentioned in John 1:1-2. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God”.  Here we see the author is speaking of a beginning, but the Father has no beginning.  So what beginning is the author referring to? Would it not be reasonable to conclude that he is referring to the Father’s plan of multiplying Himself.

Laura Lee says:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

A better wording of John 1:1-2 is found here:

Joh 1:1 From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.
Joh 1:2 This Word was from the first in relation with God. (The Bible in Basic English)

Strong’s Concordance #G746 backs up The Bible in Basic English. It is hard to grasp what eternity is, so most people would make a statement such as “in the beginning”. In the beginning of what? Eternity which has no beginning or end. It is better stated “From the First”.

You can’t use this verse to prove Christ was created. It actually proves they were together from the first or through all eternity.

John Leitch said:
This same beginning of Christ and Christ being sent forth to create everything and to be the savior of mankind is mentioned in John 17:8 –KJV. “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from thee, (Daniel 2:34) and they have believed that thou didst send me“.

Laura Lee says:
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

I am sure the problem you are having with this verse is the part where it says “I came out from thee”. Most people don’t have a problem with this verse because in context they know that what it is saying is that Christ is saying that God the Father told him what to say to the people and the people received the words and believed that Christ came from Heaven because God the Father sent him on this mission. It has nothing to do with multiplying God and nothing to do with Daniel 2:34 where the mountain was not represented by God.

John Leitch said:
Herbert Armstrong and many others believe there were always two Gods and they both had eternal life but does scripture back this up? Although there is scripture that does agree with everything starting with one God, I have not personally found any that agree with “Trinity” (three individual Gods) or “Twinity” (two ever living Gods).

Laura Lee says:
All I can then say to you at this point is that you either can’t read or you just don’t understand what you are reading when you do read it. There is no Bible support for a trinity such as in “Father, Son and Holy Ghost” but there is plenty of support for two God’s, God the Father and Christ His Son being ever living God’s.

John Leitch said:
1 Timothy 6:14-16 (The reason Christ had immortality is because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) and Christ gave up that immortality (Philippians 2:6-8) to be born of Mary and go through a begettal & rebirth process.) “Which in his times he (Christ) shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen”.

Laura Lee says:
Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay and brake them to pieces. Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The stone was Christ and the stone became the mountain and by extension the Kingdom of God because Christ is the King of the Kingdom of God on earth.

*****************
1 Timothy 6:14-16
The word immortality here is used only 3 times in the NT. It is Strong’s number G110, and it means deathless. God the Father has never died thus an absolutely true statement about the Father.

The thing is that Christ was the same as God the Father until he was born of Mary and then died. When God the Father resurrected Him he was once again restored to the same glory as the Father and as he had before He was born of Mary.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Timothy 6:16 does not prove there was only one God and that Christ was created.

*****************
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, (Lexham English Bible)

Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, (World English Bible)

The last two verses here captures the context of these verses the best. In context these verses say that Christ was God and was equal to God the Father but He did not have a problem with lowering himself to become a man and die for our sins.

Php 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, (American Standard Version)

Php 2:6 Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God. (Contemporary English Version)

John Leitch said:
Eve existed as long as Adam because she came out of Adam, but she did not exist as a separate entity until she came out. The Messiah existed as long as the Father because He came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) but He did not exist as a separate entity until He came out.

Laura Lee says:
I believe I debunked your theory in regard to this quite some time ago.

John Leitch said:
Hebrews 7:3 (Melchisedec (aka–Christ) has the same personal history as the Father because he came out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) the same as Eve came out of Adam.) “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

Laura Lee says:
Remember John, Daniel 2:34 does not have a mountain that represents God, so if Hebrews 7:3 Melchizedek is Christ then it looks like He was an ever-living God just like God the Father.

John Leitch said:
What Mr. Steinle and I are presenting, is exactly what got the Messiah crucified. The Jewish religion views coming out of the Father (Daniel 2:34) or being begotten & born of God is blasphemy and worthy of a death sentence. The Jewish religion believes God is a species of one and it will always be that way. It seems that many believe my Father is incapable of multiplying Himself through a begettal and birth process.

The gospel message is that the humankind through a metamorphosis (so-to-speak) is capable of becoming the God kind through a begettal of the Father and a rebirth. The wonderful, fantastic message the New Testament authors brought (Luke 16:16) was, people, although being born into the “kingdom of humans” have the potential of being reborn into the “God Kingdom” (John 3:3).

Laura Lee says:
What you were suggesting here is way more than a simple begettal and birth process. What you are suggesting here is creepy. You believe that Christ and Eve are both on the same level when it comes to existence. You believe that Christ and Eve existed before they existed (that is according to your theory). You make it sound like God is a big blob who can break pieces from Himself and make more God’s. This is one of the most far-fetched fables I have ever heard, and I certainly hope that James Steinle is smarter than to buy into this theory.

John Leitch said:
Farmer logic (If the ever living God (1 Timothy 6:16) begets a person, what does that person think they will be when born?)

–When my bull begot something; when it is born, it was always a cattle beast.
–When my ram begot something; when it was born, it was always a sheep.
–When the tomcat begot something; when it was born, it was always a bunch of cats.
–When a Maple tree drops its seed, farmer logic tells me, when it sprouts from the ground, it will become another maple tree. I can’t recall it ever being a spruce, oak, cedar, or apple tree.

My brothers and sisters, one of the foundational teachings of the bible is that “kind” begets “kind”.

That’s it for what it is worth.

Laura Lee says:
This theory is really not worth the paper it is written on. This is more than a false doctrine. It is a creepy false doctrine, but then October is the month for creepy things.

I don’t believe anyone would disagree with you that kind begets kind, but what you are suggesting here is not a begettal and birth process. It is as you claim a theory about multiplication and metamorphosis both of which seem as though they have roots mounted some place in evolution.

And just in case I did not make myself clear in regard to Daniel 2:34 I will try to make it more clear here. When it says, “cut out without hands”, it is talking about a supernatural action. The first mountain represents the Kingdom of God in Heaven. The second mountain represents the Kingdom of God on Earth and by extension Christ. None of this verse or even the entire chapter of Daniel 2 is speaking of a multiplication, metamorphosis, begettal or birth of any person or God. This verse is part of a future prophecy about the Kingdom of God.

While I was researching this paper, I did get stuck in one place at 5:00 in the morning on a night of insomnia. Yes, I do suffer from insomnia, does anyone have a cure for that? So, I did email a couple of people I have a great deal of respect for, but right after I emailed them, I already knew what the answer was at the point I got stuck. I actually liked both answers but one of the answers was really long and this was already getting very long so instead of printing them here I may use them in another way later. So, I want to thank those two people for their really quick response to me the day I got stuck.

In conclusion, I sincerely hope that no one actually believes what John Leitch has suggested here. And to John Leitch I want to say, I have met you and talked with you in days gone by and I like you, sincerely like you as a person but my responsibility to show people what the Bible actually says is to those reading this newsletter. It takes precedence over friendship. My allegiance is to God the Father and Christ His Son.

In the future and to John and whoever reads this, my suggestion is this. When you do research on any given subject blank your mind and say I need to look at this from a perspective that I myself may be wrong and if I am I will change my belief. Pray for Wisdom and Understanding because without it you will get nowhere. Always read all scripture in context of what it says. Use other Bible versions, use books you have or always wanted to get, use the internet but be careful of the internet as stuff is changing out there.

Thank you, John, for sharing, I know this will be hard for you to read.

The Old King James Bible was used throughout unless stated otherwise.

Holy Days 2026
Passover (Observed at Sunset the Evening Before.)	April 2, 2026
Passover/Unleavened Bread	April 2-8, 2026
Pentecost	May 22, 2026
Trumpets	September 12, 2026
Atonement	September 21, 2026
Tabernacles	September 26 to October 2, 2026
Last Great Day	October 3, 2026

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